Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3877488 times)

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23300 on: October 30, 2017, 04:13:34 PM »
Vlad's argument: God is a creator, therefore creators are gods.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23301 on: October 30, 2017, 04:15:27 PM »
Wiggs,

Quote
Vlad's argument: God is a creator, therefore creators are gods.

Yes - it's the ass-backwards fallacy of affirming the consequent.   
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 04:18:41 PM by bluehillside »
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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23302 on: October 30, 2017, 04:19:09 PM »
Vlad,

From post 51 of this thread, Alien said:

Quote
As I understand the term God, it means, "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being" (OED definition). That seems a good enough place to start. Christians claim to be able to fill in some more details, but do you have any problem with that OED definition?

Well you seem to have mutiple problems with this, don't you?

Creator of the universe? Yes, box ticked.

Ruler of this universe? No, box not ticked. In the SU conjecture, it might well have been left to go its own way with no further attempt at control at all. Indeed, it may have been put into a metaphorical drawer to gather metaphorical dust. Indeed the being that created it might have died soon afterwards.

The source of all moral authority?  No, box not ticked, as there is no sign that the universe obeys any moral laws at all or even that they exist. Incidentally it seems that NDG Tyson was of a similar view when he said:

Quote
The more I look at the universe, the less convinced I am that there is something benevolent going on…


The supreme being? No, box not ticked, as there is no way, even in the SU conjecture, to establish that the being or beings (it could have been a group thing) that created the simulation was not contingent or in other words was the reason for its own existence. There is therefore no reason to consider that this creator was supreme.

So it seems at the very outset you put your necessary conditions for the divine abysmally low.

As a conjecture I have no problem at all with the SU approach, but if the creation of the universe is the only necessary condition for you to claim divinity in action, then so be it. I suggest, if this is what you are claiming, then you are really saying very little.
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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23303 on: October 30, 2017, 04:20:40 PM »
I fully understand Hitchen's arguments, but they do not make the slightest dent in my Christian faith, because God has made Himself known to me and nothing can take away this personal relationship.  If Hitchen had known God, I am sure he could have chosen to use his intelligence to support the Christian faith instead of trying to ridicule it.

You believe god has made itself known to you, that doesn't mean it is a fact.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23304 on: October 30, 2017, 04:21:42 PM »
I fully understand Hitchen's arguments, but they do not make the slightest dent in my Christian faith, because God has made Himself known to me and nothing can take away this personal relationship. 

Has God also revealed to you the inherent truth of the Christian scriptures, or perhaps told you which ones are especially relevant and which are perhaps best taken with a pinch of salt, or even ignored completely as being a misrepresentation of the truth?
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23305 on: October 30, 2017, 04:22:31 PM »
God has made Himself known to me
Perhaps you could expand upon this so that others can understand the nature of the experience.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23306 on: October 30, 2017, 04:33:18 PM »
AB,

If you fully understood the argument you'd realise that your (no doubt sincere) belief about that is probably misplaced. That's your problem: no matter how cogent the arguments that undo you, you cannot or will not even consider them because their consequences would be too difficult for you to process.
Clever arguments, no matter how well formed, cannot alter the truth.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23307 on: October 30, 2017, 04:35:05 PM »
AB,

Quote
Clever arguments, no matter how well formed, cannot alter the truth.

But how do you know that "clever arguments" aren't a better way to finding "the truth" than your argument-free personal convictions on the matter?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23308 on: October 30, 2017, 04:38:40 PM »
So your god choose not to appear to Hitchens, and will punish him for eternity for using his intelligence - did you mean to portray your god as a lying thug?
The best way to get to know God is to invite Him in to your life - then He can make Himself known.  You need to take a step in faith.

Those who seek shall find.
Knock and the door will be opened unto you.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23309 on: October 30, 2017, 04:42:04 PM »
The best way to get to know God is to invite Him in to your life - then He can make Himself known.  You need to take a step in faith.

Those who seek shall find.
Knock and the door will be opened unto you.


That's one of the worst quotes to give on a forum like this.   You will find a ton of people who will say that they did knock, and sweet FA happened.   I guess they needed to give a triple knock and wear one trouser leg rolled up, and have an apple in their mouth. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23310 on: October 30, 2017, 04:43:01 PM »
Clever arguments, no matter how well formed, cannot alter the truth.

Your version of 'truth', you mean.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23311 on: October 30, 2017, 04:43:28 PM »
AB,

But how do you know that "clever arguments" aren't a better way to finding "the truth" than your argument-free personal convictions on the matter?
It depends on the motive behind the clever arguments.
As implied in Sassy's opening post - are they not just reasons to keep from believing in him?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23312 on: October 30, 2017, 04:43:36 PM »
The best way to get to know God is to invite Him in to your life - then He can make Himself known.  You need to take a step in faith.

Those who seek shall find.
Knock and the door will be opened unto you.


Which God - the God who inspired Paul, or the God who inspired the Epistle of James? Or the Hindu godhead Brahman?

I suggest that if you set the parameters first, and are disposed to be convinced, then your answer will come in terms of those parameters.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23313 on: October 30, 2017, 04:44:23 PM »
The best way to get to know God is to invite Him in to your life - then He can make Himself known.  You need to take a step in faith.

Those who seek shall find.
Knock and the door will be opened unto you.

and if you don't because you used your intelligence like Hitchens, your slavering thug god punishes you for eternity. Why are you portraying your god as depraved psychopath, Alan? 

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23314 on: October 30, 2017, 04:45:13 PM »
enki wrote:

Quote
As a conjecture I have no problem at all with the SU approach, but if the creation of the universe is the only necessary condition for you to claim divinity in action, then so be it. I suggest, if this is what you are claiming, then you are really saying very little.

It seems to be a considerable dilution.  All hail, software engineer, creator of all, destroyer of all, sovereign over machine code and all the other bits and bobs. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23315 on: October 30, 2017, 04:47:01 PM »
It depends on the motive behind the clever arguments.
As implied in Sassy's opening post - are they not just reasons to keep from believing in him?
Ah so back at your perennial tactic of saying people who disagree with you and your vindictive thug god are liars.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 04:56:24 PM by Nearly Sane »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23316 on: October 30, 2017, 04:52:02 PM »
Wiggs,

Quote
That's one of the worst quotes to give on a forum like this.   You will find a ton of people who will say that they did knock, and sweet FA happened.   I guess they needed to give a triple knock and wear one trouser leg rolled up, and have an apple in their mouth.

It also opens up the particularly venomous line of reasoning that if, say, someone loses a child to meningitis it must in some way be her fault because she didn't knock hard enough. I've experienced this being said for real, and for me it's one of the more morally disgusting consequences of belief in an interventionist god.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23317 on: October 30, 2017, 04:55:26 PM »
AB,

Quote
It depends on the motive behind the clever arguments.

No it doesn't, at least provided the arguments attempted aren't sophistry. An argument is either logically robust or it isn't - you don't get to decide that though depending on whether or not you happen to like where it leads.
 
Quote
As implied in Sassy's opening post - are they not just reasons to keep from believing in him?

They might well be good reasons not to believe in a god, but there's no "just" about it. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23318 on: October 30, 2017, 05:02:18 PM »
That is quite nasty though - as NS just said.  'Reasons to keep from believing in him'  suggests (like Vlad's God-dodging) that people secretly believe in God, but cover it up through various subterfuges.   For a 1000 years, you could be burned for this.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23319 on: October 30, 2017, 05:18:27 PM »
That is quite nasty though - as NS just said.  'Reasons to keep from believing in him'  suggests (like Vlad's God-dodging) that people secretly believe in God, but cover it up through various subterfuges.   For a 1000 years, you could be burned for this.
and for an eternity, Alan's little Begbie god will burn you for using your intelligence.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23320 on: October 30, 2017, 05:19:58 PM »
Clever arguments, no matter how well formed, cannot alter the truth.
This reminds me of two things, two examples of fairly florid anti-intellectualism.

One is a current poster here (who keeps changing his name) who seems to regard all and any serious discussion of philosophical issues as pretentious wankery and knowing correct, specific terminology is 'showing off'.

The second - the same thing, essentially - is the thick-as-pigshit kids I remember from school destined to have no higher station in life than to ask people if they want medium or large fries several times a day, who likewise scorned the other kids with a natural curiosity and natural intelligence who were genuinely interested in learning new and interesting things.

In both cases the use of a word such as 'clever' - otherwise regarded as a positive and laudatory term - is used as a negative, as though cleverness (either in people or in arguments) is somehow suspect, something to be mistrusted rather than commended, even applauded.

That you use the word is such a manner is very telling. The arguments that undo you are clever. They're well-thought-out, cogent, coherent, rational and in the right hands (literally - bluehillside; Prof. Davey; Gordon; torridon to name but a few*) beautifully couched - everything that your effusions are not, relying as they do on almost every logical fallacy known to man, personal whim elevated to absolute objective truth and what have you.

* E & OE.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 05:30:23 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23321 on: October 30, 2017, 05:20:08 PM »
Vlad's argument: God is a creator, therefore creators are gods.
That's not my argument.
My argument is that God is a creator of a universe.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23322 on: October 30, 2017, 05:21:21 PM »
The best way to get to know God is to invite Him in to your life - then He can make Himself known.  You need to take a step in faith.

Those who seek shall find.
Knock and the door will be opened unto you.

I have asked you this before.

How, exactly does anyone do this?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23323 on: October 30, 2017, 05:22:30 PM »
That's not my argument.
My argument is that God is a creator of a universe.
Just "a"?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #23324 on: October 30, 2017, 05:23:29 PM »
That's not my argument.
My argument is that God is a creator of a universe.

I thought you were saying that if God is a creator of a universe, therefore a creator of a universe is God.  This is the fallacy of the converse, I think,  or affirming the consequent. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!