Searching for GOD...

[SusanDoris]

Having read this last load of Alan's posts I think it's pretty safe to say that he's certainly living in a world of his own making, a sad case.

ippy

Yes, after reading a few of AB's posts, I have to skim or scroll past others since I begin to feel as if I'm wading through treacle again!

[SusanDoris]

NS

It is interesting to note that, as usual, AB seems to have managed not to read your question about the babies who die while, for instance, someone gets a parking place.

[torridon]

You seem to be implying that you can't believe in anything relating to other people's experience unless you experience it yourself.  (Just like Thomas the apostle) 

Everyone has unique personal experience.  We tend to value our own personal experience over that of others, with good reason - second hand testimony is less rich, also people can lie or be poor at communicating it.  I might find a certain piece of music uplifting; others may find the exact same thing dull or tedious however.  We cannot draw grand objective true-for-all conclusions from our own personal experience.

[torridon]

I agree that we can't avoid the substrate of cause and effect.  The question to ponder lies in whether there is a definable ultimate cause generated by conscious human will, or whether the ultimate cause drifts off into an infinity of physical chains of unavoidable cause and effect.  Of course if you presume that our conscious awareness is just an emergent property of the physically defined activity taking place in our brains, then we have to conclude that any perceived control is just an illusion.  But we all have incredibly strong perception that it is our conscious awareness which is in control.  If this perception is true it provides evidence for the spiritually defined willpower of the human soul.

All you are achieving here is to relocate the centre of willpower from the mind to the spiritual soul, and if the soul 'can't avoid the substrate of cause and effect' either then all you are claiming is that is it is the soul that is robotic, or deterministic, rather than the mind. An exercise in pointlessness.

[Nearly Sane]

I am a free spirit, living life to the full, with a great family and community and enjoying every day as a precious gift from God.  Nothing at all to be sad about, Ippy.   

Yeah, you're a charmer - happy that your god finds your contact lens for you while it watches babies die in agony. No reason to feel sad when your morality is that warped.

[Alan Burns]

All you are achieving here is to relocate the centre of willpower from the mind to the spiritual soul, and if the soul 'can't avoid the substrate of cause and effect' either then all you are claiming is that is it is the soul that is robotic, or deterministic, rather than the mind. An exercise in pointlessness.

No.
You do not seem to understand how the gift of conscious awareness works and how it can interact - not just react.  Conscious awareness  allows us to contemplate many different possible actions or thought processes and to consciously choose which path or action to take.  It is not the purely uncontrollable deterministic scenario you have with the physical model.

[Alan Burns]

Yeah, you're a charmer - happy that your god finds your contact lens for you while it watches babies die in agony. No reason to feel sad when your morality is that warped.

It seems to be a common ploy to quote other people's misfortunes as a reason not to believe in God.  Everyone on this earth will inevitably endure suffering of some form - it is part of life.  But God has promised that those who put their trust in Him will be given whatever is needed to come through it - we may not avoid the suffering but we will be given the strength to cope with it.  If I am aware of a child who is suffering, of course I will pray for that child and the family because I know that God does answer our prayers.

[floo]

It seems to be a common ploy to quote other people's misfortunes as a reason not to believe in God.  But everyone on this earth will inevitably endure suffering of some form - it is part of life.  But God has promised that those who put their trust in Him will be given whatever is needed to come through it - we may not avoid the suffering but we will be given the strength to cope with it.  If I am aware of a child who is suffering, of course I will pray for that child and the family because I know that God does answer our prayers.

You don't KNOW, you only believe that to be true. There is nothing good about a god who allows a sick child to suffer, but finds lost belongings.

[Nearly Sane]

It seems to be a common ploy to quote other people's misfortunes as a reason not to believe in God.  But everyone on this earth will inevitably endure suffering of some form - it is part of life.  But God has promised that those who put their trust in Him will be given whatever is needed to come through it - we may not avoid the suffering but we will be given the strength to cope with it.  If I am aware of a child who is suffering, of course I will pray for that child and the family because I know that God does answer our prayers.

No, that's not the point here. You posit a god that will find your contact lens but will allow a child to suffer in agony. It isn't a reason to not believe in a god, it's a reason to believe that the god you believe is a capricious thug.

[Maeght]

It seems to be a common ploy to quote other people's misfortunes as a reason not to believe in God.  Everyone on this earth will inevitably endure suffering of some form - it is part of life.  But God has promised that those who put their trust in Him will be given whatever is needed to come through it - we may not avoid the suffering but we will be given the strength to cope with it.  If I am aware of a child who is suffering, of course I will pray for that child and the family because I know that God does answer our prayers.

The fact of suffering is not a reason not to believe in the existence of God, but it is a reason to question some of the things said by believers about God. Comments about God answering prayers about seemingly trivial things makes no sense to me.

[torridon]

No.
You do not seem to understand how the gift of conscious awareness works and how it can interact - not just react.  Conscious awareness  allows us to contemplate many different possible actions or thought processes and to consciously choose which path or action to take.  It is not the purely uncontrollable deterministic scenario you have with the physical model.

That's not consistent with your claim in #23590 that cause and effect is unavoidable.

Choosing which path to follow is merely us enacting our preference in any given situation, and we have no control over our preferences or beliefs. We cannot choose what to want.

[SteveH]

It seems to be a common ploy to quote other people's misfortunes as a reason not to believe in God.  Everyone on this earth will inevitably endure suffering of some form - it is part of life.  But God has promised that those who put their trust in Him will be given whatever is needed to come through it - we may not avoid the suffering but we will be given the strength to cope with it.  If I am aware of a child who is suffering, of course I will pray for that child and the family because I know that God does answer our prayers.

Good post. AB is getting a lot of stick from the usual chronically-sarky atheists, but, while my brand of Christianity is different from his, he's not a bad bloke.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Yes......vague and as indefinite as smoke.

Not really – seems pretty straightforward to me. Ether way though, as life can be vague and indefinite sometimes did you have an argument to make?

Oh, and by the way I asked you:

“Now as I've answered your question, how about finally answering one of mine: what method do you propose to decide on the adequacy or otherwise of the competing narratives that could explain your religious experience?”

Should I take your continued silence in response to mean that you will continue to refuse ever, ever, ever to answer question you’re asked while demanding that others answer your questions?

What does that say about you do you think?

[bluehillside Retd.]

HV,

Good post. AB is getting a lot of stick from the usual chronically-sarky atheists, but, while my brand of Christianity is different from his, he's not a bad bloke.

Why do you think that someone who, according to his own description, worships a psychopathic thug is a "good bloke"?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You do not seem to understand how...

No, the problem here is that you keep beginning posts with "you do not understand" when what you actually mean is, "you do not agree with my opinion". It's a mantra you repeat endlessly despite having your opinion comprehensively falsified, which makes you indistinguishable from an algorithm on an endless loop.

[Maeght]

AB,

No, the problem here is that you keep beginning posts with "you do not understand" when what you actually mean is, "you do not agree with my opinion". It's a mantra you repeat endlessly despite having your opinion comprehensively falsified, which makes you indistinguishable from an algorithm on an endless loop.

Spot on BHS.

[ippy]

It seems to be a common ploy to quote other people's misfortunes as a reason not to believe in God.  Everyone on this earth will inevitably endure suffering of some form - it is part of life.  But God has promised that those who put their trust in Him will be given whatever is needed to come through it - we may not avoid the suffering but we will be given the strength to cope with it.  If I am aware of a child who is suffering, of course I will pray for that child and the family because I know that God does answer our prayers.

Like I said before Alan, you're living in a world of your own making, a really sad case.

Alan, I've imagined up a couple of million pounds in my bank account, now how do I go about convincing my bank the money is really there in my account, I'm asking you because of your expertise in this area of trying to convince people of the reality of something that's not really there?

Mind you you're not that sucessful, so don't worry too much if you haven't got an answer for me.

Kind regards ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

ipster,

Like I said before Alan, you're living in a world of your own making, a really sad case.

Alan, I've imagined up a couple of million pounds in my bank account, now how do I go about convincing my bank the money is really there in my account, I'm asking you because of your expertise in this area of trying to convince people of the reality of something that's not really there?

Mind you you're not that sucessful, so don't worry too much if you haven't got an answer for me.

Let me save Alan's typing fingers by providing his answers for you:

1. I feel happy and fulfilled in the belief that I have the money, so you should agree that I have it.

2. You don't understand that I really have it.

3. Imagine how awful it would be if I didn't have that money.

4. I can't conceive of a world in which I don't have the money.

5. Can you prove that I don't have it?

6. God wants me to be rich. Therefore I am rich.

7. Do you really think that I could believe that I have all this money in a purposeless universe?

8. The money allows me to do good in the world. Only I don't.

9. Etc and wearily etc... 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Not really – seems pretty straightforward to me. Ether way though, as life can be vague and indefinite sometimes did you have an argument to make?

Oh, and by the way I asked you:

“Now as I've answered your question, how about finally answering one of mine: what method do you propose to decide on the adequacy or otherwise of the competing narratives that could explain your religious experience?”

Should I take your continued silence in response to mean that you will continue to refuse ever, ever, ever to answer question you’re asked while demanding that others answer your questions?

What does that say about you do you think?

The question you asked about how I eliminate other explanations for my world view/philosophy/what have you was answered.

The problem therefore, apart from those situations where I take exception to those displaying Budget inquisitor behaviour and don't answer, is your reception of the answers.

[floo]

The question you asked about how I eliminate other explanations for my world view/philosophy/what have you was answered.

The problem therefore, apart from those situations where I take exception to those displaying Budget inquisitor behaviour and don't answer, is your reception of the answers.

The posts of BHS make a lot more sense than yours.

[ippy]

ipster,

Let me save Alan's typing fingers by providing his answers for you:

1. I feel happy and fulfilled in the belief that I have the money, so you should agree that I have.

2. You don't understand that I really have it.

3. Imagine how awful it would be if I didn't have that money.

4. I can't conceive of a world in which I don't have the money.

5. Can you prove that I don't have it?

6. God wants me to be rich. Therefore I am rich.

7. Do you really think that I could believe that I have all this money in a purposeless universe?

8. The money allows me to do good in the world. Only I don't.

9. Etc and wearily etc...

Haven't got time to answer you Blue I'm off down to my bank, 

Regards ippy

P S I'll have to book a small operation to my face when I'pick up the money, otherwise I'll irritate people even more than I do already, with that perpetual grin on my face.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The posts of BHS make a lot more sense than yours.

It's your kind of soothing schmoozic Floo, Mood Music, The Radio 2 of antitheism, like Jazz for the skeptic, it ''goes down!''.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

The question you asked about how I eliminate other explanations for my world view/philosophy/what have you was answered.

The problem therefore, apart from those situations where I take exception to those displaying Budget inquisitor behaviour and don't answer, is your reception of the answers.

No, you've told us what you eliminate (the inadequate) but you've been entirely silent on the question you were actually asked, namely how you eliminate it. One of the various problems with your lying is that you’re so very bad at it. You were asked twice in fact for the method you use to evaluate the various possible narrative that could explain. Here:

“Surely you know by now that Vlad doesn't answer questions. He'll demand that others answer his, but he won't answer anything himself. Never. Never, ever, ever.

Look, I'll show you:

Hey Vlad: What method you use to determine whether the explanatory narrative you attach to your "experiences" is the correct one, and that the various alternative explanations are therefore not the correct ones?

(Somewhere in the distance a coyote wails mournfully, tumbleweed scurries by, a wind chime clangs dementedly as the breeze picks up etc)”

(Reply 23533)

And here:

“Now as I've answered your question, how about finally answering one of mine: what method do you propose to decide on the adequacy or otherwise of the competing narratives that could explain your religious experience?”

(Reply 23589)

So far all you’ve told us is that you pick the option based on “adequacy”, just as I might do the same about the adequacy of the explanation “leprechauns” for rainbows. That though tells us the square root of bugger all about what method your employ to decide on that adequacy, which is what you were actually asked.

I could of course ask you instead why you never, ever, ever answer a question you’re asked but as you have form for not answering that question either there probably wouldn’t be much point would there.     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

ipster,

Let me save Alan's typing fingers by providing his answers for you:

1. I feel happy and fulfilled in the belief that I have the money, so you should agree that I have.

2. You don't understand that I really have it.

3. Imagine how awful it would be if I didn't have that money.

4. I can't conceive of a world in which I don't have the money.

5. Can you prove that I don't have it?

6. God wants me to be rich. Therefore I am rich.

7. Do you really think that I could believe that I have all this money in a purposeless universe?

8. The money allows me to do good in the world. Only I don't.

9. Etc and wearily etc...

Hillside's lost it!

[floo]

It's your kind of soothing schmoozic Floo, Mood Music, The Radio 2 of antitheism, like Jazz for the skeptic, it ''goes down!''.

Never mind dear, I am sure nursie will soon make it better.