Searching for GOD...

[Sebastian Toe]

That for God and us death is not the end.
It is better or more benevolent to create the conditions which give rise to humanity than not to.

..and after having created those conditions, humanity having arisen, it is better to find someone's contact lens than.........?

[Nearly Sane]

The death of God by a thousand cuts or a thousand c*nts?

Surely you think your god is worth a bit more than 10 Euros?

[Enki]

I would like to know from Hillside whether he is using his own definition of benevolence when he talks about omnibenevolence. Does he want a celestial sugar daddy or gumball machine?

Am I expecting an answer? Nope.

My definition of benevolence is associated with kindness and compassion towards others. My idea of benevolence is to try to reduce suffering and pain in others and to show goodwill towards others. You might well have a totally different definition, but, as you have not yet described what you think it means, there is no way I could comment on your attitude to this.

So, for me, the characteristic of omnibenevolence in a God, especially when linked to the characteristics of omnipotence and omniscience, should result in clear, noticeable and regular evidence of benevolence on an overwhelming scale. I see no signs of any such evidence. For me, the world seems indifferent to human(or indeed any other kind of) suffering. Indeed, the only signs of benevolence that I can vouch for are those present in the animal world, and especially human beings, which suggests that they are characteristics which are evolutionary in nature.

This is just one reason why I see no reason to believe in gods, although I do accept that one could claim the existence of a very limited god who is still benevolent but unable to majorly alter the inexorable march of nature. The trouble is that the only claimed evidence for such a god would be his/her erratic, often trivial, interference through intercessory prayer. This doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, for, as with the often anecdotal accounts of miracles, there doesn't seem to be any way in which one can ascertain that any god has actually been involved at all.

Don't know about Blue. He'll answer for himself of course, but I just thought I would give you my take on it, however unwelcome you may find it.

[Shaker]

The death of God by a thousand cuts or a thousand c*nts?

You read my mind 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

My definition of benevolence is associated with kindness and compassion towards others. My idea of benevolence is to try to reduce suffering and pain in others and to show goodwill towards others. You might well have a totally different definition, but, as you have not yet described what you think it means, there is no way I could comment on your attitude to this.

So, for me, the characteristic of omnibenevolence in a God, especially when linked to the characteristics of omnipotence and omniscience, should result in clear, noticeable and regular evidence of benevolence on an overwhelming scale. I see no signs of any such evidence. For me, the world seems indifferent to human(or indeed any other kind of) suffering. Indeed, the only signs of benevolence that I can vouch for are those present in the animal world, and especially human beings, which suggests that they are characteristics which are evolutionary in nature.

This is just one reason why I see no reason to believe in gods, although I do accept that one could claim the existence of a very limited god who is still benevolent but unable to majorly alter the inexorable march of nature. The trouble is that the only claimed evidence for such a god would be his/her erratic, often trivial, interference through intercessory prayer. This doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, for, as with the often anecdotal accounts of miracles, there doesn't seem to be any way in which one can ascertain that any god has actually been involved at all.

Don't know about Blue. He'll answer for himself of course, but I just thought I would give you my take on it, however unwelcome you may find it.

Why should I find anything unwelcome?
In fact I am trying to find anything.
Having argued how bad and evil the world is and having discounted God you are left with human evil since unconscious material isn't presumably capable of evil.
So how are we to cope with the mountain of human evil? Reduce it's evil? (con job) moral relativism? reify human evil as a separate force, discount it, see religion as the root of all evil? or see it as the elephant in the room like Chesterton something tobe explained in terms of the moral certainty exemplified on this thread by Nearly Sane?

[Nearly Sane]

Why should I find anything unwelcome?
In fact I am trying to find anything.
Having argued how bad and evil the world is and having discounted God you are left with human evil since unconscious material isn't presumably capable of evil.
So how are we to cope with the mountain of human evil? Reduce it's evil? (con job) moral relativism? reify human evil as a separate force, discount it, see religion as the root of all evil? or see it as the elephant in the room like Chesterton something tobe explained in terms of the moral certainty exemplified on this thread by Nearly Sane?

Except I am a moral relativist but just as I am certain that I like marmite, I am certain that I find Alan's god a capricious thug. Don't misrepresent me.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Except I am a moral relativist

Act like one then. Just a matter of taste? You don't strike me as the kind of person who would shout about Marmite but then each to his own, er, taste.

[Nearly Sane]

Act like one then. Just a matter of taste? You don't strike me as the kind of person who would shout about Marmite but then each to his own, er, taste.

who is shouting? And what do you think a moral relativist should act like?

[Enki]

Why should I find anything unwelcome?
In fact I am trying to find anything.
Having argued how bad and evil the world is and having discounted God you are left with human evil since unconscious material isn't presumably capable of evil.
So how are we to cope with the mountain of human evil? Reduce it's evil? (con job) moral relativism? reify human evil as a separate force, discount it, see religion as the root of all evil? or see it as the elephant in the room like Chesterton something tobe explained in terms of the moral certainty exemplified on this thread by Nearly Sane?

No sign that the world is particularly bad or evil. I certainly haven't argued that. No sign that there is a God, but I certainly haven't argued that you can discount the possibility of there being one.

If a benevolent god actually exists then perhaps you can give the answer to your own question. How would you expect your benevolent god to cope with and reduce what you call the 'mountain of human evil'?  After all, I assume this proposed god was responsible for creating this universe in the first place so has ultimate responsibility for it. If you can't suggest a clear method for your god to show his/her benevolence in order to clear up this 'evil' mountain, then why ask us mere mortals?

If you can't, then perhaps he/she doesn't really exist after all.

[floo]

The different opinions about the nature of the Biblical god seem to emphasis the probability it is a human creation, imo.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No sign that the world is particularly bad or evil. I certainly haven't argued that. No sign that there is a God, but I certainly haven't argued that you can discount the possibility of there being one.

If a benevolent god actually exists then perhaps you can give the answer to your own question. How would you expect your benevolent god to cope with and reduce what you call the 'mountain of human evil'?  After all, I assume this proposed god was responsible for creating this universe in the first place so has ultimate responsibility for it. If you can't suggest a clear method for your god to show his/her benevolence in order to clear up this 'evil' mountain, then why ask us mere mortals?

If you can't, then perhaps he/she doesn't really exist after all.

I disagree that there are no signs of God. I think that if we are to agree on morality being to do with human agency then we cannot exclude human evil. If we resort to scientific views on human agency then that eliminates good and evil and that is clearly avoiding morality. So we are left with human morality as a realism...and that for me is a pointer to God.

That the gymnastics of a moral irrealist or relativist appears as avoidance reinforces that pointer.

Removing God gets us back to God because human evil has to be acknowledged or denied...even in Zeitgeist situations.Eg someoneacting against zeitgeist is either immoral or different or wrong at the time of writing. Being different carries no actual moral statement, wrong at the time of writing is just the same thing with a meaningless arbitrary label. Wrong today reviewed tomorrow is different from the moral certainty of someone who declares that the declaration of immorality on Gay behaviour has itself always been immoral. Moral relatives who declare in the fashion of moral absolutists are Humbug.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Typo corrected

[floo]

I disagree that there are no signs of God. I think that if we are to agree on morality being to do with human agency then we cannot exclude human evil. If we resort to scientific views on human agency then that eliminates good and evil and that is clearly avoiding morality. So we are left with human morality as a realism...and that for me is a pointer to God.

That the gymnastics of a moral irrealist or relativist appears as avoidance reinforces that pointer.

Removing God gets us back to God because human evil has to be acknowledged or denied...even in Zeitgeist situations.Eg someoneacting against zeitgeist is either immoral or different or wrong at the time of writing. Being different carries no actual moral statement, wrong at the time of writing is just the same thing with a meaningless arbitrary label. Wrong today reviewed tomorrow is different from the moral certainty of someone who declares that the declaration of immorality on Gay behaviour has itself always been immoral. Moral relatives who declare in the fashion of moral absolutists are Humbug.

The behaviour of the Biblical god is immoral.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The behaviour of the Biblical god is immoral.

In whose morality?

[floo]

In whose morality?

Any decent human morality. An entity which would flood a whole planet and kill most of the humans and animals living on it because it was having a temper tantrum can hardly be described as moral

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Any decent human morality. An entity which would flood a whole planet and kill most of the humans and animals living on it because it was having a temper tantrum can hardly be described as moral

I get from that that you are a moral absolutist and you refer or try to refer to that absolute and morally real authority rather than making it up according to taste.

I would put myself in that same category although for me the biblical God is actually expressed better in the person of Jesus and teaching as described in the New Testament.

However you are a self confessed atheist and self advertised antitheist so for you the actual treatment of God as the ACTUAL bad guy can be discounted. Apparently God does not exist.

Given that we are left with how everyone in your story have treated and used the bible and idea of God. I think that explains why your picture of God and mine are far different. I am personally puzzled at your decision as a supposed atheist.....not to leave God out of it. 

[Alan Burns]

I feel a need to clarify my position on answers to prayer because NS in particular seems a bit disturbed by God's apparent selectivity.

I learnt from an early age that the things I pray about turn out much better than the things I neglect to pray about.  So I have witnessed to some personal answers to prayer - including the truly miraculous healing of my wife's father from an aortic aneurysm (after we were told he was dying with just a few minutes left to live) and the finding of a contact lens dropped in a grassy field (I did not even have to search - my finger was guided straight to it).

So whenever I feel worried or anxious about anything, I try to remember to pray about it because I know that the prayers I say in faith do get answered in wonderful ways.  And I am certain that if more people in this world were able to pray with faith in the name of Jesus Christ, this whole world would be a better place.

[Shaker]

I feel a need to clarify my position on answers to prayer because NS in particular seems a bit disturbed by God's apparent selectivity.

I learnt from an early age that the things I pray about turn out much better than the things I neglect to pray about.

Without a control on the experiment how would you know?

So I have witnessed to some personal answers to prayer - including the truly miraculous healing of my wife's father from an aortic aneurysm (after we were told he was dying with just a few minutes left to live) and the finding of a contact lens dropped on a grassy field (I did not even have to search - my finger was guided straight to it).

Welcome to Daft Anecdote Avenue.

So whenever I feel worried or anxious about anything, I try to remember to pray about it because I know that the prayers I say in faith do get answered in wonderful ways.  And I am certain that if more people in this world were able to pray with faith in the name of Jesus Christ, this whole world would be a better place.

More credulous goons. Just what the world needs.

[Nearly Sane]

I feel a need to clarify my position on answers to prayer because NS in particular seems a bit disturbed by God's apparent selectivity.

I learnt from an early age that the things I pray about turn out much better than the things I neglect to pray about.  So I have witnessed to some personal answers to prayer - including the truly miraculous healing of my wife's father from an aortic aneurysm (after we were told he was dying with just a few minutes left to live) and the finding of a contact lens dropped on a grassy field (I did not even have to search - my finger was guided straight to it).

So whenever I feel worried or anxious about anything, I try to remember to pray about it because I know that the prayers I say in faith do get answered in wonderful ways.  And I am certain that if more people in this world were able to pray with faith in the name of Jesus Christ, this whole world would be a better place.

I an not disturbed by the god you believe in's selectivity. I an struggling to understand why you have double standards for the god you believe in and a person who acted in the same way. none of your post above begins to address that and you continue to say your god finds your contact lens, while watching babies die in agony. You worship a capricious thug.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Any decent human morality. An entity which would flood a whole planet and kill most of the humans and animals living on it because it was having a temper tantrum can hardly be described as moral

But according to you there is no God. So that just leaves decent human morality.....and indecent human morality.

[floo]

I feel a need to clarify my position on answers to prayer because NS in particular seems a bit disturbed by God's apparent selectivity.

I learnt from an early age that the things I pray about turn out much better than the things I neglect to pray about.  So I have witnessed to some personal answers to prayer - including the truly miraculous healing of my wife's father from an aortic aneurysm (after we were told he was dying with just a few minutes left to live) and the finding of a contact lens dropped in a grassy field (I did not even have to search - my finger was guided straight to it).

So whenever I feel worried or anxious about anything, I try to remember to pray about it because I know that the prayers I say in faith do get answered in wonderful ways.  And I am certain that if more people in this world were able to pray with faith in the name of Jesus Christ, this whole world would be a better place.

You will not answer the question why god helped you find your contact lens, but will let a child suffer. 

[Alan Burns]

I an not disturbed by the god you believe in's selectivity. I an struggling to understand why you have double standards for the god you believe in and a person who acted in the same way. none of your post above begins to address that and you continue to say your god finds your contact lens, while watching babies die in agony. You worship a capricious thug.

There seems to be a vast difference between the God I know and the God you think I know.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I an not disturbed by the god you believe in's selectivity. I an struggling to understand why you have double standards for the god you believe in and a person who acted in the same way. none of your post above begins to address that and you continue to say your god finds your contact lens, while watching babies die in agony. You worship a capricious thug.

So God IS a capricious thug or he doesn't exist?

[floo]

There seems to be a vast difference between the God I know and the God you think I know.

The god you have created in your own mind, you mean.

[floo]

So God IS a capricious thug or he doesn't exist?

State what is good about the Biblical portrayal of god?