Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Naturally stupid are all men who have not known God
and who, from the good things that are seen, have not been able to discover Him-who-is,
or, by studying the works, have failed to recognise the Artificer. .......

.... living among his works, they strive to comprehend them
and fall victim to appearances, seeing so much beauty.
Even so, they are not to be excused:
if they are capable of acquiring enough knowledge
to be able to investigate the world,
how have they been so slow to find its Master?

How profound are these words written thousands of years ago, yet so applicable to the modern day.  You will not discover God in the minutia of human scientific investigation which leads so many to believe in the false God which brings us into existence from nothing.  God lives in the depth of our innermost being  - in that spiritual awareness which defies any material definition or description ...

I don't think people look to science to find god; rather we look to science to find knowledge and understanding.  Nothing wrong in that.  If there is any evidence for gods then science would uncover it and publish it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Rhi,

What I find frightening is the tribalism. They can see the unpleasantness, yet stick together because they are both ‘children of God’.

I think there’s something in that. Once you’ve decided that Jesus wants your for a sunbeam, that you “know God” and such like what does it matter if you lie for the higher cause, call people who falsify your thinking “stupid” or tell them to “go to hell”, even abuse innocents provide you’re in “holy” orders if you’re that way inclined because your place in heaven is assured come what may?

Voltaire again: “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” Not only atrocities – scummy behaviour on websites seems to me to be on the same spectrum.

Does faith make people this way, or does it just provide a safe space for them to do it? I think the latter – clearly there are delightful and nuanced and empathetic people who believe in various gods. There’s also though a much less wholesome set whose absence or ordinary decency and humanity can run its course once they think they’re god’s little helpers, that they have the moral highground.

Yuk.     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Does faith make people this way, or does it just provide a safe space for them to do it?   

I think any safe space for this kind of thing will do it. Lots of people have faith who do not commit atrocities, Many would say faith prevents and has prevented them doing atrocities, many have turned to faith as a repentence for atrocity. Voltaire lived in an almost total faith environment, had a new way of thinking and erroneously attached morality to that new way of thinking, not having the prophetic Pud to forsee Stalin and Pol Pot or how the enlightenment would lead to world exploitation of nature and populations.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't think people look to science to find god; rather we look to science to find knowledge and understanding.  Nothing wrong in that.  If there is any evidence for gods then science would uncover it and publish it.

Scientific endeavour and direction is decided by people not science itself. Science does not do God. Your last statement is a circular argument.

[torridon]

Scientific endeavour and direction is decided by people not science itself. Science does not do God. Your last statement is a circular argument.

That's probably because most people have recognised that 'god' is a matter of personal belief rather than objective fact

[Shaker]

Many would say faith prevents and has prevented them doing atrocities

Don't you find that in the least bit worrying at the very mildest?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Don't you find that in the least bit worrying at the very mildest?

I think history and the Milgram experiments have shown that shown that most people can be coerced into atrocities.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's probably because most people have recognised that 'god' is a matter of personal belief rather than objective fact

Since science developed in a religious environment that is likely to be wrong and science grew as a study of the empirical although not uniquely, given 17th century French science and it's basis on reason and the effect of mystical thinking of people like Newton. Clerk Maxwell etc.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think history and the Milgram experiments have shown that shown that most people can be coerced into atrocities.

Of course those claiming that religion makes people do terrible things would wish to ignore Milgram because apparently the torture which turned out to be fake although those doing it didn't know that was instigated by scientists.

[Alan Burns]

I don't think people look to science to find god; rather we look to science to find knowledge and understanding.  Nothing wrong in that.  If there is any evidence for gods then science would uncover it and publish it.

But you assume that human scientific investigation will discover any evidence for God if God does exist.  Can you not see the limitations of what science can discover?  It is by definition limited to what can be perceived by physical human senses and man made contraptions.  There is much, much more to reality which our spiritual awareness can reveal if you allow it to.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

There is much, much more to reality which our spiritual awareness can reveal if you allow it to.

Why do you think anyone would agree with your unqualified assertion about that?

Or do you perhaps think you have some brilliant argument for it that the rest of us are too stupid to grasp so you don't bother making it? 

[torridon]

But you assume that human scientific investigation will discover any evidence for God if God does exist.  Can you not see the limitations of what science can discover?  It is by definition limited to what can be perceived by physical human senses and man made contraptions.  There is much, much more to reality which our spiritual awareness can reveal if you allow it to.

Science extends limited human perception.  It does not limit it.  There would be no point in science if it limited us.

[floo]

But you assume that human scientific investigation will discover any evidence for God if God does exist.  Can you not see the limitations of what science can discover?  It is by definition limited to what can be perceived by physical human senses and man made contraptions.  There is much, much more to reality which our spiritual awareness can reveal if you allow it to.

One could argue that if science can't discover any evidence to support the existence of god, it is more than likely it doesn't exist, being a figment of the human imagination.

[Rhiannon]

But you assume that human scientific investigation will discover any evidence for God if God does exist.  Can you not see the limitations of what science can discover?  It is by definition limited to what can be perceived by physical human senses and man made contraptions.  There is much, much more to reality which our spiritual awareness can reveal if you allow it to.

You are limiting the arguments for and against your god to the scientific here. For me the reason to disbelieve it as you present it is both the lies you have to tell yourself in order to make the god thing work, and the way you make your god of love appear to be a petty and sadistic tyrant.

[Gordon]

But you assume that human scientific investigation will discover any evidence for God if God does exist.

If god does exists then presumably there would be evidence for it: that there is none does not mean that god doesn't exist but that there are no good reasons to think it does. That you are satisfied with bad reasons is neither here not there. 

Can you not see the limitations of what science can discover?

That science has limitations, although these aren't fixed, isn't an issue for those who don't misrepresent science.
 

It is by definition limited to what can be perceived by physical human senses and man made contraptions.  There is much, much more to reality which our spiritual awareness can reveal if you allow it to.

Ho-hum - and this is where your incredulity kicks in, along with you creative use of words like 'reality'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If god does exists then presumably there would be evidence for it: that there is none does not mean that god doesn't exist but that there are no good reasons to think it does.

Zombie argument with special thanks to Dr De Grasse Tyson.

[Gordon]

Zombie argument with special thanks to Dr De Grasse Tyson.

I see you've had the random sentence generator fixed.

[Alan Burns]

    There is much, much more to reality which our spiritual awareness can reveal if you allow it to.

Why do you think anyone would agree with your unqualified assertion about that?

Or do you perhaps think you have some brilliant argument for it that the rest of us are too stupid to grasp so you don't bother making it?

Perhaps you could consider what inspired humanity to build magnificent cathedrals, amazing works of art, awe inspiring music, lifetime devotions and self sacrifices - all in the cause of one carpenter's son who spent most of his life in obscurity, preached for three years, was executed for blasphemy and deserted by most of his followers?

[Rhiannon]

Why do you think anyone would agree with your unqualified assertion about that?

Or do you perhaps think you have some brilliant argument for it that the rest of us are too stupid to grasp so you don't bother making it?

Perhaps you could consider what inspired humanity to build magnificent cathedrals, amazing works of art, awe inspiring music, lifetime devotions and self sacrifices - all in the cause of one carpenter's son who spent most of his life in obscurity, preached for three years, was executed for blasphemy and deserted by most of his followers?

Perhaps you could consider what inspired humanity to build the stone circles like Stonehenge?

Seriously, Alan, you aren't offering this as evidence?

[Alan Burns]

Alan,

I watched and listened to Mahalia Jackson singing 'Take My Hand, Precious Lord' last night on one of the BBC channels. She happens to be one of my favourite singers and I've seen this recording before. However I'd just like to comment on her absolute sincerity and honesty, her powerful presence, her magnificent voice, her ability to communicate her unbounded joy in her faith. It moved me, it didn't convert me but it moved me as it always does.

And then I come to your latest pitiful attempt at proselytizing, with its insults, its total lack of respect or even understanding of the views of others, its attempts at belittlement, its expressions of so called profundity, its highly questionable assumptions and faint aura of smugness and complacency. At least you have the good grace and decency to insert a psalm which expresses sincerity and faith in powerful language without demeaning itself with any condemnation of others.

I'm afraid I find your approach so sadly lacking, Alan.

I too watched Mahalia Jackson singing 'Take My Hand, Precious Lord' on television.  And I wish I had her talent for expressing my own spirituality.  But as today's Gospel reading teaches - we are all given talents to some degree, and we are all called to use these talents.  I may not be able to sing like Mahalia Jackson, but I will continue to use whatever talent God has given me to spread the good news of salvation.  And I am well aware that there are many on this forum who would not agree that I have any talent to spread this good news, but it would only take one person to appreciate what I say to make it worthwhile.

[Alan Burns]

Perhaps you could consider what inspired humanity to build the stone circles like Stonehenge?

Seriously, Alan, you aren't offering this as evidence?

It is still evidence for the existence of spiritual awareness in human beings.

[Rhiannon]

It is still evidence for the existence of spiritual awareness in human beings.

Nobody is saying that there isn't spiritual awareness in human beings, although I suspect that you and I mean different things by that. Non believers can have a spiritual awareness too. Its a very important part of my life.

[Shaker]

Nobody is saying that there isn't spiritual awareness in human beings, although I suspect that you and I mean different things by that. Non believers can have a spiritual awareness too. Its a very important part of my life.

It remains to be seen whether AB thinks that non-believers can have any kind of spirituality in the first place. Some theists can be intensely proprietorial about the word, which is why it's more likely that you're using the same word but mean different things by it.

[Maeght]

It is still evidence for the existence of spiritual awareness in human beings.

It is evidence of belief perhaps but nothing more. What inspired people to build the pyramids?

[torridon]

Perhaps you could consider what inspired humanity to build magnificent cathedrals, amazing works of art, awe inspiring music, lifetime devotions and self sacrifices - all in the cause of one carpenter's son who spent most of his life in obscurity, preached for three years, was executed for blasphemy and deserted by most of his followers?

Perhaps you could consider what inspired humanity to build the Hagia Sophia Mosque in Istanbul or the Blue Mosque in Esfahan.  How about the Brihadeeswarar Temple in India.  Take a trip to Thailand and you will be dazzled by the temples.  What inspired neolothic migrants from western Europe to start building stone circles in Orkney  ?  Christian culture has produced fantastic works but don't be indifferent to the fact that so have many other cultures; consider what are the common denominators to all these things.  If you think you can pin it all down to a single carpenter's boy from Palestine you're far from seeing and understanding the bigger picture.