Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

But the reality is that I have the conscious power to choose in how and when (and if) to satisfy my wants.

I'm sure that is how it feels, Alan.

This is what makes us human and distinguishes us from the predictable pre programmed behaviour of animals.

You, like everyone else, are an animal.

So I will continue to employ my God given power to choose to witness to the reality of God's existence.

No doubt you think that you do.

There is nothing incoherent about the power of our souls to consciously choose our thoughts, words and actions.  It is only incoherent if you try to make it comply with the endless physical chains of cause and effect

No, Alan, it is utterly incoherent because these pet hobby horses of yours have been repeatedly exposed as being fallacious bollocks.

[Walter]

I'm sure that is how it feels, Alan.

You, like everyone else, are an animal.

No doubt you think that you do.

No, Alan, it is utterly incoherent because these pet hobby horses of yours have been repeatedly exposed as being fallacious bollocks.

I don't know why any of you bother , he becomes more 'holy' with every post 

[ippy]

But the reality is that I have the conscious power to choose in how and when (and if) to satisfy my wants.  This is what makes us human and distinguishes us from the predictable pre programmed behaviour of animals.  So I will continue to employ my God given power to choose to witness to the reality of God's existence.  There is nothing incoherent about the power of our souls to consciously choose our thoughts, words and actions.  It is only incoherent if you try to make it comply with the endless physical chains of cause and effect

Such a daft post, there's not a lot of hope for you and your fellow travellers Alan, I wish your beliefs were just another one of those, a bit off key, but  harmless pursuits.

Why does anyone believe things with zero evidence, without any kind of reasonable evidential support?

Still, kind regards ippy

[Robbie]

Quote from: Alan Burns on Today at 06:42:48 PM
But the reality is that I have the conscious power to choose in how and when (and if) to satisfy my wants.  This is what makes us human and distinguishes us from the predictable pre programmed behaviour of animals.  So I will continue to employ my God given power to choose to witness to the reality of God's existence.  There is nothing incoherent about the power of our souls to consciously choose our thoughts, words and actions.  It is only incoherent if you try to make it comply with the endless physical chains of cause and effect

What you say gives the impression you can control your thoughts. How do you do that? I can't, all sorts of thoughts come teeming into my head unless I am concentrating on something important (even then sometimes). How do you clear your head? No problem with words and actions but thoughts are different.

[torridon]

But the reality is that I have the conscious power to choose in how and when (and if) to satisfy my wants.  This is what makes us human and distinguishes us from the predictable pre programmed behaviour of animals.  So I will continue to employ my God given power to choose to witness to the reality of God's existence.  There is nothing incoherent about the power of our souls to consciously choose our thoughts, words and actions.  It is only incoherent if you try to make it comply with the endless physical chains of cause and effect

If humans are less predictable than other animals, that is a matter of degree (as implied in the word less).  Human brains don't work in a conceptually altogether different manner, but rather we have extended cognitive range and are able to conceptualise to a greater degree. A female rabbit may consider a dozen scrapes as potential sites for a new burrow before deciding on one. A human may consider a dozen models before deciding which new car to buy. In both cases, the resulting choice defines our preference at that moment in time.  But neither rabbit nor human can choose which preferences to prefer; we identify our preference and try to act on it. Your preference is to witness to your faith, so you do.  Gabriella prefers to witness to her muslim faith, so she does. Gordon prefers to fly a flag for reason, so he does.  In each case, we try to act on our preferences but it makes no sense to claim that we choose which preferences to have - that would imply that we could choose to prefer something that we don't prefer.  This is incoherent meaningless nonsense. 

The truth is, our preferences form within us and this results from our interactions and experience in life. Clearly your experience to date has been markedly different from mine resulting in your powerful urge to witness to your faith.  Gabriella has had different formative experiences leading to her urge to witness to her faith. A hare krishna finds uplift and serenity by chanting the name of god over and over again.  No two humans are the same so it should not come as a surprise that there is no one-size-fits-all formula for happiness.

[Robbie]

So sensible Torridon.

[trippymonkey]

No two humans are the same so it should not come as a surprise that there is no one-size-fits-all formula for happiness.

Try telling that to Muslims ?!!?!?

A really excellent SENSIBLE post & thanks !!!
Nick

[ekim]

Quote from: Alan Burns on Today at 06:42:48 PM

What you say gives the impression you can control your thoughts. How do you do that? I can't, all sorts of thoughts come teeming into my head unless I am concentrating on something important (even then sometimes). How do you clear your head? No problem with words and actions but thoughts are different.

I think Alan said 'choose' rather than 'control'.  Many religions have a meditation process which either leads to an inner peace of mind or centres the consciousness in a 'space' detached from mental activities.  The Jesus method was metanoia (beyond mind) which unfortunately was translated as 'repent'.  'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand' could be explained as Heaven is within you beyond the mind and its mental activities.

[Maeght]

I think Alan said 'choose' rather than 'control'.  Many religions have a meditation process which either leads to an inner peace of mind or centres the consciousness in a 'space' detached from mental activities.  The Jesus method was metanoia (beyond mind) which unfortunately was translated as 'repent'.  'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand' could be explained as Heaven is within you beyond the mind and its mental activities.

What is the Jesus method you refer to?

[ekim]

What is the Jesus method you refer to?

I can only guess from some of the sayings attributed to him.  Part of it, I suspect, is meditation (metanoia) perhaps for 40 days and nights in the wilderness i.e. away from distractions and part of it in living a life of balance free from attachments and possessions 'Come to me all who are stressed and overburdened and I will give you rest. Learn from me the balance of heart and mind and you shall find peace of mind, for my balance is easy and what I carry is light.'

[Enki]

There is an Horizon programme on BBC 4 tonight at 9pm which is all about 'How we really make Decisions'. This, I think, is a repeat from a couple of years ago, but Alan, especially, and anyone else, of course, might find it interesting, at least.

[ippy]

If humans are less predictable than other animals, that is a matter of degree (as implied in the word less).  Human brains don't work in a conceptually altogether different manner, but rather we have extended cognitive range and are able to conceptualise to a greater degree. A female rabbit may consider a dozen scrapes as potential sites for a new burrow before deciding on one. A human may consider a dozen models before deciding which new car to buy. In both cases, the resulting choice defines our preference at that moment in time.  But neither rabbit nor human can choose which preferences to prefer; we identify our preference and try to act on it. Your preference is to witness to your faith, so you do.  Gabriella prefers to witness to her muslim faith, so she does. Gordon prefers to fly a flag for reason, so he does.  In each case, we try to act on our preferences but it makes no sense to claim that we choose which preferences to have - that would imply that we could choose to prefer something that we don't prefer.  This is incoherent meaningless nonsense. 

The truth is, our preferences form within us and this results from our interactions and experience in life. Clearly your experience to date has been markedly different from mine resulting in your powerful urge to witness to your faith.  Gabriella has had different formative experiences leading to her urge to witness to her faith. A hare krishna finds uplift and serenity by chanting the name of god over and over again.  No two humans are the same so it should not come as a surprise that there is no one-size-fits-all formula for happiness.

Yes to most of your post, a fair bit, is stating the obvious, I would like to add, some of us as humans animals must stastically be more gullable than others and obviously none of us are perfect, Gordon is more on to the rational reasoned out side of, I would think, most things he has to deal with, I doubt he chose to be like this, but he obviously is.

I can't see any good reason to not think that choosing the reasoned rational life, with the occasional ricket we all inevitably perform from time to time, trumps believing in, or relying on faith leading oneself to take up magical mystical or superstition based ideas the type of ideas that Alan chooses; it's not complicated.

Regards ippy

[Alan Burns]

we identify our preference and try to act on it.

Thanks again for a detailed response Torri, and apologies for not having time to give as detailed a reply as it deserves.  But I feel I must pick up in one of your phrases. 
What it it that "tries" to act on your preferences, and what is it that does the "identifying" of your preferences?  No matter how much you try to distance yourself from the essence of our conscious control,  the reality comes back to us having the capacity to consciously control and decide our actions.  The ultimate question is:  What is in control - you or the uncontrollable forces of nature?

[Robbie]

ekim, thanks.  Metanoia means a turn around, complete change of heart.

Many Christians practice the type of meditation you outline. I've just never been able to do it.

[Sassy]

I never said that you didn't.

The answer to my question is......?

Why would they be split for eternity?

[Sassy]

What you actually mean is accept your particular take on the faith. Not every Christian sees it your way.

How would you know?  You don't even know the basics considering they 'rammed it down your throat'

[Sassy]

I had muesli with a banana for breakfast.

All created by God... Guess the truth is that you don't see that you rely completely on the mercy,love and provision of God.
Denial?

[Sassy]

Yeah, calling people who don't agree with you "stupid" is so very profound....

 

You choose hell... so the truth is that God can allow men to be called 'stupid' in the bible.

[Sassy]

sounds like the rantings and  longings of a sex  deprived pervert to me.

Is that the voice of experience in the matters of sex deprived perverts?

You need to post something sensible not ignorant and unrelated to what was written.

[Sassy]

You're not massively wide of the mark. The links between religious ecstasy and sexual ecstasy have a long pedigree and are well known. The accounts of St Teresa of Avila make an interesting read.

The religious is pure not erotic. Come off it, Shaker you know better than that. 

[Sassy]

So Alan sat in Mass yesterday and heard something about the stupidity of unbelievers and thought yes, that’ll get those pesky atheists on R&E to see things my way.

If you had been able to comprehend the truth of the bible you might not now be an atheist.

The fact is, people who choose hell of heaven cannot be seen as anything but Spiritually DEAD other than stupid.

How come people bring the same pathetic excuses and arguments up when they have no answers?

As unbelievers do you actually have the answer?

[Sassy]

62 Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.

2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

3 How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain all of you: as a bowing wall shall ye be, and as a tottering fence.

4 They only consult to cast him down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.

5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.

6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.

9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

10 Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.

12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.


In the tongue is the power of life and death.  But true power belongs to God. For all the name calling you have no power to change anything God does, do you? You cannot prove anything her says false.

Do you really feel you are actually achieving anything through ridicule of others or sarcasm?
Whatever the faith of those you ridicule, you cannot take anything positive away for yourselves, because you have done nothing but let yourselves down with such miserable attacks.

[Shaker]

The religious is pure not erotic. Come off it, Shaker you know better than that. 

This may come as a shock to you but not all of us see anything erotic as "impure."

[Sassy]

This may come as a shock to you but not all of us see anything erotic as "impure."

relating to or tending to arouse sexual desire or excitement.

Praise of God  or as said " religious ecstasy'  is not erotic...
Since it comes from a pure spiritual longing and not a sexual desire.

So I know you know what I was relating to.

[Sebastian Toe]

Why would they be split for eternity?

Is there only one possible place to go after judgement?