Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Thanks again for a detailed response Torri, and apologies for not having time to give as detailed a reply as it deserves.  But I feel I must pick up in one of your phrases. 
What it it that "tries" to act on your preferences, and what is it that does the "identifying" of your preferences?  No matter how much you try to distance yourself from the essence of our conscious control,  the reality comes back to us having the capacity to consciously control and decide our actions.  The ultimate question is:  What is in control - you or the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Around and around we go.  I've got a serious feeling of deja vu here.  What is it in a wolf that "tries" to bring down a bison ? What is in control, the wolf or the uncontrollable forces of nature ? Both wolf and human are products of and manifestations of nature and to claim that we can be free of the laws of nature makes no sense.  Can a house be free of the bricks from which it is constructed ? Can an ocean be free of water ?  If I step off a cliff I'm afraid I don't get to choose whether to fall downwards or not.  We are not free of nature, we are made of it.   Understanding this dissolves your false dichotomy "What is in control - you or the uncontrollable forces of nature?"

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Time once more to register my disquiet at what I perceive to be some of the short comings of this thread,
1: That the determinist/free will thing is a done deal.
2: The arse clenching reductionist materialism of the discussion. For example a house is really a load of bricks and it is an illusion to treat it as a house. An emergent entity is really a load of bits at the previous organisational level and so it goes.
3: Ignorance of novelty where effectively it too becomes some kind of illusion.
4: Ignorance of the hard problem of consciousness.
5: Undue satisfaction at ''incomplete theories''. That knowing how to make a brick is just a skip away from knowing how to make a house.

[Alan Burns]

Around and around we go.  I've got a serious feeling of deja vu here.  What is it in a wolf that "tries" to bring down a bison ? What is in control, the wolf or the uncontrollable forces of nature ? Both wolf and human are products of and manifestations of nature and to claim that we can be free of the laws of nature makes no sense.  Can a house be free of the bricks from which it is constructed ? Can an ocean be free of water ?  If I step off a cliff I'm afraid I don't get to choose whether to fall downwards or not.  We are not free of nature, we are made of it.   Understanding this dissolves your false dichotomy "What is in control - you or the uncontrollable forces of nature?"

We are not free of nature, but we are not entirely driven by it, we have the conscious willpower of our human souls to interact with it, manipulate it and use it as God intended us to do.

[floo]

We are not free of nature, but we are not entirely driven by it, we have the conscious willpower of our human souls to interact with it, manipulate it and use it as God intended us to do.

You keep saying that but can't substantiate it.

[torridon]

We are not free of nature, but we are not entirely driven by it, we have the conscious willpower of our human souls to interact with it, manipulate it and use it as God intended us to do.

There is no evidence in support of that view; furthermore it betrays a profound and seemingly willful ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There is no evidence in support of that view; furthermore it betrays a profound and seemingly willful ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality.

You know the fundamental nature of reality?

[Walter]

There is no evidence in support of that view; furthermore it betrays a profound and seemingly willful ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality.

24154 posts of
oh yes it is ; oh no it isn't ,,very tedious, dead horses will never get up no matter what AB thinks 

[Walter]

You know the fundamental nature of reality?

no, and neither do you

[Alan Burns]

There is no evidence in support of that view; furthermore it betrays a profound and seemingly willful ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality.

The evidence for the human soul is in the power I have to consciously interact, manipulate, control and create.  I am not nature's puppet.

[Walter]

The evidence is in the power I have to consciously interact, manipulate, control and create.  I am not nature's puppet.

try stopping yourself from dying, then we'll see 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

24154 posts of
oh yes it is ; oh no it isn't ,,very tedious, dead horses will never get up no matter what AB thinks

Here you acknowledge and complain about Alan's ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality.

[Sebastian Toe]

Here you acknowledge and complain about Alan's ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality.

What about you?
Do you rejoice at Alan's ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

no, and neither do you

Here you admit to your own ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality.

[Alan Burns]

try stopping yourself from dying, then we'll see

That may not be one of my God given powers.  However, I do have the power to stop myself from living, but this is a power I shall never invoke.

[Robbie]

24154 posts of
oh yes it is ; oh no it isn't ,,very tedious, dead horses will never get up no matter what AB thinks

Tedious is an understatement. The thread gets nowhere and never will. I rarely look at it these days.

[ippy]

62 Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.

2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

3 How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain all of you: as a bowing wall shall ye be, and as a tottering fence.

4 They only consult to cast him down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.

5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.

6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.

9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

10 Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.

12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.


In the tongue is the power of life and death.  But true power belongs to God. For all the name calling you have no power to change anything God does, do you? You cannot prove anything her says false.

Do you really feel you are actually achieving anything through ridicule of others or sarcasm?
Whatever the faith of those you ridicule, you cannot take anything positive away for yourselves, because you have done nothing but let yourselves down with such miserable attacks.

Surly Sass, you must realise how soppy it is to think the bible proves that the bible is right? You're not really that daft, are you?

Regards ippy

[wigginhall]

The evidence for the human soul is in the power I have to consciously interact, manipulate, control and create.  I am not nature's puppet.

It's odd how much this sounds like gnosticism, which also tried to distance humans from nature, and exalted a non-natural component.   They tended to say that the divine spark is trapped in the body, from where it could be liberated, but unfortunately, this gave the body a definite negative slant, and you get the condemnation of the 'carnal' in various writers.   But you also find this in Christianity.   

Also strange is the pick-up of this by various New Age ideas, which also aimed for the spirit and downgraded the earth and the body.  Not all of them actually. 

I would think that paganism has had a rebirth, partly to redress the balance and go back to nature.

[Walter]

Here you admit to your own ignorance of the fundamental nature of reality.

just popped in to say

you're not worth it !

[Walt Zingmatilder]

just popped in to say

you're not worth it !

Nah I bet you salsa-ed in like the man in the Milk Tray advert.

[Stranger]

I am not nature's puppet.

How would you know if you were?

[torridon]

The evidence for the human soul is in the power I have to consciously interact, manipulate, control and create.

Termite mounds are evidence for termite souls then.

[torridon]

I am not nature's puppet.

Neither is anyone.  That phrase implies a relationship between puppeteer and puppet.  It would be more accurate to recognise that there is no disjoint between us and nature, we are nature; what we are and what we do are manifestations of nature.  The notion that we are separate from nature is long past its sell by date, it bears nothing but foul fruit.

[Alan Burns]

Termite mounds are evidence for termite souls then.

I can't believe you can compare yourself to a termite mound!
Can termite mounds think?
Can they choose?
Can they explore the universe?
Can they take over the world?
Can they lie and deceive?
Can they offer love and compassion?
Can they believe (or disbelieve) in God?

[Alan Burns]

Neither is anyone.  That phrase implies a relationship between puppeteer and puppet.  It would be more accurate to recognise that there is no disjoint between us and nature, we are nature; what we are and what we do are manifestations of nature.  The notion that we are separate from nature is long past its sell by date, it bears nothing but foul fruit.

The phrase just implies that all our strings are operated by the unguided, uncontrollable forces of nature.

[Shaker]

I can't believe you can compare yourself to a termite mound!
Can termite mounds think?

Not all humans are so blessed in that regard, it seems.

Can they choose?

Begging the question.

Can they explore the universe?

Humans have scratched at an infinitesimally tiny fraction of it.

Can they take over the world?

Bacteria are the winners in that regard.

Can they lie and deceive?

Several species can do that.

Can they offer love and compassion?

Ditto.

Can they believe (or disbelieve) in God?

No. Much to their credit.