Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3873257 times)

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24200 on: November 26, 2017, 05:21:23 PM »
My experience over a good many years tells me that if there's one thing that many a theist loves more than his or her religion, it's the negative proof fallacy - many others of course, but there's something about that one in particular that's like crystal meth.
I was merely pointing out the error in trying to shoehorn all reality to fit in with the snippets of human scientific discoveries to date.  I am quite aware that pointing out this error does not prove the existence of the human soul - that will come in time after you can at least admit the possibility of our spiritual nature.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24201 on: November 26, 2017, 05:29:46 PM »
I was merely pointing out the error in trying to shoehorn all reality to fit in with the snippets of human scientific discoveries to date.

Which nobody is doing: be careful with those matches, Alan.

Quote
I am quite aware that pointing out this error does not prove the existence of the human soul - that will come in time after you can at least admit the possibility of our spiritual nature.

Nice to see begging the question getting an airing: some company for NPF.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24202 on: November 26, 2017, 05:37:33 PM »
I was merely pointing out the error in trying to shoehorn all reality to fit in with the snippets of human scientific discoveries to date.  I am quite aware that pointing out this error does not prove the existence of the human soul - that will come in time after you can at least admit the possibility of our spiritual nature.

Wish I could prove I've got a couple of million pounds in my bank account Alan, I'd certainly give some to the N S S.

ippy

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24203 on: November 26, 2017, 05:50:58 PM »
I was merely pointing out the error in trying to shoehorn all reality to fit in with the snippets of human scientific discoveries to date.  I am quite aware that pointing out this error does not prove the existence of the human soul - that will come in time after you can at least admit the possibility of our spiritual nature.

It does not logically follow that by accepting there is a possibility of something existing that it will actually be proved to exist. You can hope it might, but that is an entirely different thing to stating that proof of such a thing will definitely follow. Sorry, Alan. I don't think you've thought this through.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24204 on: November 26, 2017, 08:12:52 PM »
It does not logically follow that by accepting there is a possibility of something existing that it will actually be proved to exist. You can hope it might, but that is an entirely different thing to stating that proof of such a thing will definitely follow. Sorry, Alan. I don't think you've thought this through.
The proof comes from God Himself, once you open the door to let Him into your life.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24205 on: November 26, 2017, 08:39:31 PM »
The proof comes from God Himself, once you open the door to let Him into your life.
... and hot on the heels of the NPF comes the BtQ.

Logic is very much something for other people, isn't it, Alan?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24206 on: November 26, 2017, 09:30:41 PM »
The proof comes from God Himself, once you open the door to let Him into your life.
How?
Exactly.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24207 on: November 26, 2017, 10:04:46 PM »
The proof comes from God Himself, once you open the door to let Him into your life.
yeah, like unwanted guests at Christmas . You can't get rid of the fuckers

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24208 on: November 27, 2017, 05:29:01 AM »
The proof comes from God Himself, once you open the door to let Him into your life.

Right, so when you said in #24183 that it was a logical conclusion, that was a bit of a porky?

This is actually the old "if you really believe in this, then you'll come to believe it" nonsense...
 
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24209 on: November 27, 2017, 06:39:50 AM »
Just consider for a moment how human creativity works.  It begins as an imaginary concept in the entity of conscious awareness we call the human mind.  Then this concept becomes a material reality through many consciously controlled interactions with the natural material elements to achieve a specific goal.  Our reality comprises a mixture of consciously controlled interactions and deterministically defined reactions.  The fact that human scientific discovery can explain the latter but can't explain the former does not mean that it does not exist.

Even if we don't have a full description of conscious willpower in neuroscientific terms that doesn't justify us in hoisting in some magic spell in its place. We don't have a full description of gravity so shall we imagine invisible pixies are pulling things downwards with invisible strings ?  That believe it or not is your approach, it's banal, it's cheap, it's not worthy of thinking people.  What we do is explore where the evidence points, that is the honest approach.  If you allow magic in, then all insight is lost, all bets are off, and nothing makes any sense.

Here's an example of human creativity : I've seen bananas and I've seen blue, so I can imagine a blue banana. Here's an example of animal creativity : a chimp fashioning a twig to make a tool to extract termites from a mound,  To achieve this, the chimp must use a combination of imagination and trial and error; a bit like scientific method, in fact.   The fact that we see creativity and imagination at work in nature allows us to conclude that they are natural,  not supernatural.

Can a colour blind man imagine a blue banana ? I think not, our imagination is bounded by what we have already experienced, at a base level.  This is evidence that creativity is natural, it is bounded by what is possible.  If homo sapiens uniquely were somehow supernatural then what would be to stop a colour blind man from imagining blue bananas ?

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24210 on: November 27, 2017, 08:40:06 AM »
The proof comes from God Himself, once you open the door to let Him into your life.

Alan this sort of daft statement gives good reason to keep you and people like you especially, well away from the next generation of very young children.

ippy

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24211 on: November 27, 2017, 09:07:29 AM »
The proof comes from God Himself, once you open the door to let Him into your life.

It didn't work for me at all!

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24212 on: November 27, 2017, 09:55:40 AM »
As usual, I think AB's posts are Uriah Heep-ish and suffocatingly cloying.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24213 on: November 27, 2017, 09:59:23 AM »
Even if we don't have a full description of conscious willpower in neuroscientific terms that doesn't justify us in hoisting in some magic spell in its place. We don't have a full description of gravity so shall we imagine invisible pixies are pulling things downwards with invisible strings ?  That believe it or not is your approach, it's banal, it's cheap, it's not worthy of thinking people.  What we do is explore where the evidence points, that is the honest approach.  If you allow magic in, then all insight is lost, all bets are off, and nothing makes any sense.

Here's an example of human creativity : I've seen bananas and I've seen blue, so I can imagine a blue banana. Here's an example of animal creativity : a chimp fashioning a twig to make a tool to extract termites from a mound,  To achieve this, the chimp must use a combination of imagination and trial and error; a bit like scientific method, in fact.   The fact that we see creativity and imagination at work in nature allows us to conclude that they are natural,  not supernatural.

Can a colour blind man imagine a blue banana ? I think not, our imagination is bounded by what we have already experienced, at a base level.  This is evidence that creativity is natural, it is bounded by what is possible.  If homo sapiens uniquely were somehow supernatural then what would be to stop a colour blind man from imagining blue bananas ?
The example you give of a chimp fashioning a twig to make a tool to extract termites from a mound is one of many such examples in animals being able to use learnt behaviour to achieve a specific instinctive goal.

The example you give of humans being able to imagine blue bananas is a typical example of human imagination which satisfies no instinctive need and is done entirely through the gift of free thought processes for which there can be no viable materialistic explanation.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24214 on: November 27, 2017, 10:01:07 AM »
As usual, I think AB's posts are Uriah Heep-ish and suffocatingly cloying.
Quite.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24215 on: November 27, 2017, 10:07:09 AM »
...the gift of free thought processes for which there can be no viable materialistic explanation.

Why do you persist in being so dishonest? It's hardly an advert for your religion.

Unless you know everything about the 'material' and exactly how 'free thought processes' come about (which you've admitted that you don't), you cannot possibly know that there is "no viable materialistic explanation".
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24216 on: November 27, 2017, 10:10:41 AM »
The example you give of a chimp fashioning a twig to make a tool to extract termites from a mound is one of many such examples in animals being able to use learnt behaviour to achieve a specific instinctive goal.

What is learnt behaviour exactly and what is the process which makes it learnt?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24217 on: November 27, 2017, 10:11:07 AM »
Why do you persist in being so dishonest? It's hardly an advert for your religion.

Unless you know everything about the 'material' and exactly how 'free thought processes' come about (which you've admitted that you don't), you cannot possibly know that there is "no viable materialistic explanation".
Material does not think - it just reacts.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24218 on: November 27, 2017, 10:14:42 AM »
What is learnt behaviour exactly and what is the process which makes it learnt?
It is what can be logically built up from the memory of lots of trial and error experiences.  Similar to the logic used in some computerised chess playing games which are designed to learn from the memory of previous games.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24219 on: November 27, 2017, 10:16:38 AM »
It is what can be logically built up from the memory of lots of trail and error experiences.  Similar to the logic used in some computerised chess playing games which are designed to learn from the memory of previous games.
Trial and error?
Is that another way of saying experimenting?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24220 on: November 27, 2017, 10:26:58 AM »
Why do you persist in being so dishonest? It's hardly an advert for your religion.

Unless you know everything about the 'material' and exactly how 'free thought processes' come about (which you've admitted that you don't), you cannot possibly know that there is "no viable materialistic explanation".
Material does not think - it just reacts.

So, you don't care about honesty?

Did you even bother to read what I said? Unless you are claiming to know how thinking works and everything about the 'material', you cannot honestly make this claim.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24221 on: November 27, 2017, 10:31:03 AM »
Trial and error?
Is that another way of saying experimenting?
Not really.
Human experimentation is consciously driven to investigate specific ideas and goals.  Learnt behaviour built up in animals is more likely to be driven by the memory of desirable outcomes from non specific behaviour and events.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24222 on: November 27, 2017, 10:35:31 AM »
Material does not think - it just reacts.


So, you don't care about honesty?

Did you even bother to read what I said? Unless you are claiming to know how thinking works and everything about the 'material', you cannot honestly make this claim.
It is a logical conclusion based upon the known properties of material elements and how they behave. 
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24223 on: November 27, 2017, 10:41:36 AM »
Not really.
Human experimentation is consciously driven to investigate specific ideas and goals.  Learnt behaviour built up in animals is more likely to be driven by the memory of desirable outcomes from non specific behaviour and events.

Humans are just an animal species.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24224 on: November 27, 2017, 10:46:54 AM »
It is a logical conclusion based upon the known properties of material elements and how they behave.

So, basically you seem to saying that you can't see how "material elements" can result in thought, so they can't - which is textbook argument from incredulity/ignorance.

So I guess it might be logic, rather than honesty, that you don't care about - but don't you think you might do a better job of sharing your beliefs if you cared about both...?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))