Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3876368 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24250 on: November 28, 2017, 06:34:07 AM »
No, it is not hope, just a genuine understanding that conscious perception can't be achieved by material entities alone.  All the research currently being done in the areas such as artificial intelligence, robotics, neuroscience and cognitive science just involve the mechanisms of data flow from one place to another within complex networks.  But data flow is not conscious perception.  Science has not been able to define what comprises conscious perception.  It has not come close.

It has come a lot closer than you; you are lagging way behind because of your persistent strategy of science denial and fixation on older ways of understanding that no longer cut it in the light of research.  Conscious perception is data flow; there would be no point in having eyes and ears if they refused to transmit information.  That there seems to be a 'single entity of perception' is a product of brain function, coordinating all those modal information flows into a synchronised stream of data.  Tell me, what gazelle would survive more than five minutes on the plains without a brain to process and synchronise all the information coming from its senses. Every creature that has conscious perception also has a brain, and no, it is not just a coincidence, conscious perception is a product of brain function.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24251 on: November 28, 2017, 08:29:55 AM »
It has come a lot closer than you; you are lagging way behind because of your persistent strategy of science denial and fixation on older ways of understanding that no longer cut it in the light of research.  Conscious perception is data flow; there would be no point in having eyes and ears if they refused to transmit information.  That there seems to be a 'single entity of perception' is a product of brain function, coordinating all those modal information flows into a synchronised stream of data.  Tell me, what gazelle would survive more than five minutes on the plains without a brain to process and synchronise all the information coming from its senses. Every creature that has conscious perception also has a brain, and no, it is not just a coincidence, conscious perception is a product of brain function.
Ah, the dawn ramblings from the Wordsworth of Scientism. I don't doubt the science but I do doubt it as the ultimately useful language framework. Something you acknowledge I believe in your frequent lyrical use of reductionism.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24252 on: November 28, 2017, 09:53:04 AM »
Ah, the dawn ramblings from the Wordsworth of Scientism. I don't doubt the science but I do doubt it as the ultimately useful language framework. Something you acknowledge I believe in your frequent lyrical use of reductionism.

Not sure you can eeally    ccuse anyone else of rambling!

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24253 on: November 28, 2017, 09:57:13 AM »
Ah, the dawn ramblings from the Wordsworth of Scientism. I don't doubt the science but I do doubt it as the ultimately useful language framework.
What would you recommend as the ultimate useful language framework?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24254 on: November 28, 2017, 10:11:43 AM »
What would you recommend as the ultimate useful language framework?
The vocabulary of the sciences and the humanities of course.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24255 on: November 28, 2017, 11:44:52 AM »
The vocabulary of the sciences and the humanities of course.
And is Mr Burns using those, correctly?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24256 on: November 28, 2017, 12:12:38 PM »
The vocabulary of the sciences and the humanities of course.

Memes?       ;D
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24257 on: November 28, 2017, 01:51:55 PM »
No, it is not hope, just a genuine understanding that conscious perception can't be achieved by material entities alone.  All the research currently being done in the areas such as artificial intelligence, robotics, neuroscience and cognitive science just involve the mechanisms of data flow from one place to another within complex networks.  But data flow is not conscious perception.  Science has not been able to define what comprises conscious perception.  It has not come close.

Just for information, which specific area of neuroscience or cognitive science are you referring to?  I'm sure you are aware of the large amount of research that is going on in these fields, and I used to take an interest in it, having worked in a stroke clinic.  I noticed the other day that there is ongoing research on our sense of self, and its neural underpinnings, but I am also eager to learn more.   Any links?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24258 on: November 28, 2017, 06:05:48 PM »
  Conscious perception is data flow; there would be no point in having eyes and ears if they refused to transmit information.
But where does the data flow to?
Data flow is just what it says - data flowing from one place to another.
Data flow is not conscious perception
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24259 on: November 28, 2017, 06:35:48 PM »
But where does the data flow to?
Data flow is just what it says - data flowing from one place to another.
Data flow is not conscious perception

How do you know this (leaving aside what you mean by 'conscious perception')?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24260 on: November 28, 2017, 06:39:24 PM »
But where does the data flow to?
Data flow is just what it says - data flowing from one place to another.
Data flow is not conscious perception

An assertion without any data to support it.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24261 on: November 28, 2017, 06:42:32 PM »
Data flow is not conscious perception

Since you've already admitted that you don't know how conscious perception works, one is forced to wonder how you can be so sure. Well, for half a millisecond or so, until one realizes it's you and baseless, arrogant assertion is just what you do...
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24262 on: November 28, 2017, 11:44:37 PM »
Since you've already admitted that you don't know how conscious perception works, one is forced to wonder how you can be so sure. Well, for half a millisecond or so, until one realizes it's you and baseless, arrogant assertion is just what you do...
I do not know how it works, but I do know that it must comprise the awareness of the information contained in thousands if not millions of brain cells at any moment in time, so I can repeat - conscious perception is not data flow.  It is the single conscious perceiver of many data sources.  And a perceiver of information is not merely a physical reaction to that data, it is awareness of it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24263 on: November 29, 2017, 01:00:00 AM »
, so I can repeat - conscious perception is not data flow. 
...but it could be.
Continuous, feedback loop, data flow.
And when the data loop stops or slows down? _ unconscious/sleep.
No need for a third party soul.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24264 on: November 29, 2017, 06:53:45 AM »
But where does the data flow to?
Data flow is just what it says - data flowing from one place to another.
Data flow is not conscious perception

Of course perception is all about data flow; the whole point of perception is to gather information about an oganism's immediate external environment so that appropriate responses can be triggered.  To simplify a complex phenomenon, just consider visual perception and how we see.  Light is not merely some homogenous form of radiation, it is always chock full of information about the last thing it encountered.  Light cannot pass through us but the information in it does, it interacts with us courtesy of light sensitive proteins in a retina initially and then by successive transformations as the information flows through ganglia, twin optic nerves, both hemisphere's occipital lobes and then back and forth many times between visual cortex, thalamus, amygdala, neocortex and more. Hundreds of years ago we might have imagined that if we cut open a head we would expect to find the eyes connected to a central component in the brain; also connected to this would be auditory channels originating from the ears.  This, we would proclaim, is the organ of the self, the soul, see how it receives information directly from sense organs.  Now we know this understanding is naive, things are way more complex.  There is no single central organ to be in receipt of sensory information, there is no single entity of awareness, but rather what we experience (as vision, say) is the phenomenology of information flowing through us as it propagates through the brain. 

To look at something is the simplest thing in the world, but underlying that apparent simplicity is an information processing system of phenomenal complexity.  It is a conceptual fail to imagine that there must be some singular entity within us somehow 'watching' all that information flow coming along the optic nerves - if that were the case then that entity would need to have its own internal visual system.  Invoking some mythic internal entity boils down to the same class of fail as invoking god to explain bigger matters - it is an apparently simple way out of something hard, near impossible, to understand, but these simple explanations always turn out to be irrational when examined.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24265 on: November 29, 2017, 07:29:35 AM »
I do not know how it works, but I do know that it must comprise the awareness of the information contained in thousands if not millions of brain cells at any moment in time, so I can repeat - conscious perception is not data flow.  It is the single conscious perceiver of many data sources.  And a perceiver of information is not merely a physical reaction to that data, it is awareness of it.

Nope - all you are doing here, Alan, is indulging in the fallacy of composition: again.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24266 on: November 29, 2017, 07:51:53 AM »
I do not know how it works, but I do know that it must comprise the awareness of the information contained in thousands if not millions of brain cells at any moment in time, so I can repeat - conscious perception is not data flow.  It is the single conscious perceiver of many data sources.  And a perceiver of information is not merely a physical reaction to that data, it is awareness of it.

All your posts on this are just just rewordings of "it can't be physical because I can't understand how it can be" - textbook incredulity.

Your complete ignorance of what perception and consciousness really are and how they work, together with your far from complete knowledge of what physical processes can do, cannot possibly be a basis for dismissing physical processes as an explanation for consciousness.

Your stubborn arrogance and apparent inability to follow simple logic are not an advert for your religion at all.
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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24267 on: November 29, 2017, 08:46:20 AM »
I do not know how it works, but I do know that it must comprise the awareness of the information contained in thousands if not millions of brain cells at any moment in time, so I can repeat - conscious perception is not data flow.  It is the single conscious perceiver of many data sources.  And a perceiver of information is not merely a physical reaction to that data, it is awareness of it.

I went to a talk once by a neuroscientist who said the communication between different areas of the brain is probably what consciousness is. He didn't seem to have the same concerns as you. I wonder why.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24268 on: November 29, 2017, 09:31:32 AM »
I can only think by repeating his mantra over and over again AB is either trying to persuade himself it is true, or hoping he can make at least one convert. Maybe his priest looks kindly on his efforts, giving him less hail marys than others who go to confession. ;D

Robbie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24269 on: November 29, 2017, 12:33:05 PM »
I can only think by repeating his mantra over and over again AB is either trying to persuade himself it is true, or hoping he can make at least one convert. Maybe his priest looks kindly on his efforts, giving him less hail marys than others who go to confession. ;D
Bit of a stereotype there floo.
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24270 on: November 29, 2017, 01:22:21 PM »
AB is just repeating the 'hard problem', and insisting that it has no scientific resolution.    The hard problem being how physical processes in the brain produce consciousness, subjectivity, first person experience, and so on.   This has been discussed for quite a long time, (going back at least to Newton), and there are varying views on it, but AB has been blessed with an apparent insight, that neuroscience will never be able to explain it.   But it looks as if this comes from an ideological commitment to non-material solutions, in other words, the supernatural. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24271 on: November 29, 2017, 01:43:58 PM »
AB is just repeating the 'hard problem', and insisting that it has no scientific resolution.    The hard problem being how physical processes in the brain produce consciousness, subjectivity, first person experience, and so on.   This has been discussed for quite a long time, (going back at least to Newton), and there are varying views on it, but AB has been blessed with an apparent insight, that neuroscience will never be able to explain it.   But it looks as if this comes from an ideological commitment to non-material solutions, in other words, the supernatural. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

Yes, it's incredible that our Alan knows that his simplistic incredulity is quite sufficient to sweep away all the work of all those clueless philosophers, neuroscientists, and others who are studying it, that all the attempts at explaining it are doomed to failure, and that they must all therefore give up and admit that it's god-magic!
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24272 on: November 29, 2017, 01:56:10 PM »
So he replaces the difficult to explain (a scientific view of subjectivity),  with the impossible to explain (the supernatural view). 
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24273 on: November 29, 2017, 02:14:42 PM »
So he replaces the difficult to explain (a scientific view of subjectivity),  with the impossible to explain (the supernatural view).

It's actually a fascinating subject with views from there not really being a hard problem at all (Dennett) through to it being an aspect of fundamental physics (Penrose).

Yet AB's response seems to amount to "this is 'ard, so it must be magic".
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24274 on: November 29, 2017, 04:09:26 PM »
Well, there are plenty of hard problems, such as gravity, but consciousness has been like a flame attracting moths, with regard to some theists, gnostics, and general woo merchants.   I suppose it seems to hover around the border of mind and body, which is kind of ooh, spooky, or something.    I suppose also it's one of the few gaps now, where you can slide God in.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 04:32:19 PM by wigginhall »
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