Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

You may not be in complete control, but can you not admit to having any control of your thoughts, Gordon?  The scenario I am supposed to be convinced by does not allow any control because everything will be dictated by the uncontrollable forces of nature.

What does the 'you' refer to in that? Of course 'we' have (some) control over our thoughts (most of the time, if we're healthy) but what is the 'we'?

How do the 'you's and 'we's work? How do they make choices and exercise control? All you've done is added another (redundant) layer and moved the problem elsewhere so you can say "look! it mist be magic!".

[Alan Burns]

How about just stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control? We gather and evaluate all the information, we contemplate our options, we bring to bear our knowledge and experience, we consult our feelings, values, preferences, and beliefs. Finally, based on all that (or not, if we decide to act impulsively) we make a choice and act.

Nothing in the that is in any way incompatible with us being deterministic beings (the impulse my be (pseudo)-random). What exactly is the magic non-material part of us supposed to bring to the party?

But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice. 

[Stranger]

How about just stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control? We gather and evaluate all the information, we contemplate our options, we bring to bear our knowledge and experience, we consult our feelings, values, preferences, and beliefs. Finally, based on all that (or not, if we decide to act impulsively) we make a choice and act.

Nothing in the that is in any way incompatible with us being deterministic beings (the impulse my be (pseudo)-random). What exactly is the magic non-material part of us supposed to bring to the party?

But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice.

So you can't answer the question: what exactly is the magic non-material part of us supposed to bring to the party?

Where did I say that there wasn't a conscious self that is in control?

[Shaker]

So you can't answer the question: what exactly is the magic non-material part of us supposed to bring to the party?

Well, it's the soul and it, like, does, like, souly stuff, innit.

[Sebastian Toe]

But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice.

Again this just  demonstrates a  continuous feedback loop of data, emeging as a concious entity.
Giving your concious self the feeling of control.

[Alan Burns]

Again this just  demonstrates a  continuous feedback loop of data, emeging as a concious entity.
Giving your concious self the feeling of control.

Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Suggest this to any creative artist and I can confidently predict what their opinion will be.

[Shaker]

Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Suggest this to any creative artist and I can confidently predict what their opinion will be.

That makes them right, does it?

[torridon]

But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice.

That's how it feels, granted, but what we have found through research is that the conscious self itself is not fundamental, it is derivative.  It is subconscious mind that is really the driver of choice and action and conscious awareness of choices made lags slightly behind, along with a feeling of ownership over the choices just made. I know that is counterintuitive, it is not how it feels, but there again, how it feels is a poor guide to how things actually are in many respects.

[SusanDoris]

But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice.

In my, increasingly stronglly held, opinion, your replies are getting sillier by the day.

[torridon]

Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Suggest this to any creative artist and I can confidently predict what their opinion will be.

Quite likely.  On the other hand, try suggesting it to a researcher in cognitive science or neuroscience.  It is they who would be more qualified to understand such things.

[Stranger]

Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

You have yet to provide any alternative. "This is 'ard to understand, it must be magic" isn't actually an argument.

I see you've conveniently 'forgotten' my question as to what exactly this magic non-material thingy is actually supposed to be doing for us - since all the aspects of decision making are consistent with material, deterministic entities (#24374 and #24377).

You seem to be insisting on something without any function.

[wigginhall]

That's how it feels, granted, but what we have found through research is that the conscious self itself is not fundamental, it is derivative.  It is subconscious mind that is really the driver of choice and action and conscious awareness of choices made lags slightly behind, along with a feeling of ownership over the choices just made. I know that is counterintuitive, it is not how it feels, but there again, how it feels is a poor guide to how things actually are in many respects.

I'm not even convinced about that, I mean, the conscious self being in charge.   I certainly get thoughts and feelings arriving unbidden in my mind.   Is AB really saying that I am creating them?   That seems counter-intuitive to me, let alone that some soul is manufacturing them.   How? Where? 

[Shaker]

I know that is counterintuitive, it is not how it feels, but there again, how it feels is a poor guide to how things actually are in many respects.

Unless you're a creative artist! They know all about these sorts of things, you know.

[Alan Burns]

Where did I say that there wasn't a conscious self that is in control?

If you admit that the conscious self can exert control, you must admit to a source for that control.  And if you try to define this source in terms of the deterministic activity of material elements then it is not control at all, but the  inevitable reaction to previous events.

[Sebastian Toe]

Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Suggest this to any creative artist and I can confidently predict what their opinion will be.

I asked my wife, who is a creative artist.
 I also asked my son, who is a creative artist.

What does your prediction say that their opions are?

[Alan Burns]

Unless you're a creative artist! They know all about these sorts of things, you know.

They know their creativity is under their control - it is what they do.

[Alan Burns]

You have yet to provide any alternative. "This is 'ard to understand, it must be magic" isn't actually an argument.

I see you've conveniently 'forgotten' my question as to what exactly this magic non-material thingy is actually supposed to be doing for us - since all the aspects of decision making are consistent with material, deterministic entities (#24374 and #24377).

You seem to be insisting on something without any function.

The function of the soul is to consciously perceive and exert conscious control in this material world.

[Shaker]

They know their creativity is under their control - it is what they do.

Do they? How do you know that they "know"?

[Stranger]

If you admit that the conscious self can exert control, you must admit to a source for that control.  And if you try to define this source in terms of the deterministic activity of material elements then it is not control at all, but the  inevitable reaction to previous events.

In what way can control not be a reaction to previous events? In order to control a situation, one needs to react to the situation.

The only logical alternative to being deterministic is to be random (as was discussed at great length before) - the very opposite of control.

The function of the soul is to consciously perceive and exert conscious control in this material world.

So, to repeat my previous point (that you are studiously avoiding), how do we do that? We gather and evaluate all the information, we contemplate our options, we bring to bear our knowledge and experience, we consult our feelings, values, preferences, and beliefs. Finally, based on all that (or not, if we decide to act impulsively) we make a choice and act.

None of which is incompatible with a deterministic, material entity. So what is the soul for?

[torridon]

I'm not even convinced about that, I mean, the conscious self being in charge.   I certainly get thoughts and feelings arriving unbidden in my mind.   Is AB really saying that I am creating them?   That seems counter-intuitive to me, let alone that some soul is manufacturing them.   How? Where?

On that subject, I often get plagued by ear worms.  Sometimes I can't get to sleep at night because I can't stop some damn tune playing on endless loop in my head; like some irritating neighbours and their stereo, there's no way I can stop it.  The worst thing is, and this must be telling, that it is often some tune I don't even like.  Can you imagine trying to sleep when there is "Agadoo-doo-doo, push pineapple, shake the tree, Agadoo-doo-doo, push pineapple, grind coffee" playing over and over in your head.

I think this is evidence that a sense of singular personhood is actually a contrivance; rather we are a mess of competing fears and desires constantly churning underneath the surface 

[Nearly Sane]

On that subject, I often get plagued by ear worms.  Sometimes I can't get to sleep at night because I can't stop some damn tune playing on endless loop in my head; like some irritating neighbours and their stereo, there's no way I can stop it.  The worst thing is, and this must be telling, that it is often some tune I don't even like.  Can you imagine trying to sleep when there is "Agadoo-doo-doo, push pineapple, shake the tree, Agadoo-doo-doo, push pineapple, grind coffee" playing over and over in your head.

I think this is evidence that a sense of singular personhood is actually a contrivance; rather we are a mess of competing fears and desires constantly churning underneath the surface

The worst committees, , the silliest PMQs, the most horrendous conference calls are as naught in comparison to the cacophony of single 30 seconds of unchosen thoughts and feelings that are experienced by this entity(ies). Not only is what we experience a faulty guide to any truth, There seems to be enormous differences in those experiences.

[Sebastian Toe]

They know their creativity is under their control - it is what they do.

According to one if them, they get most of their creative ideas from their subconcious so no real control at all.

 
However neither of them have stated a need for a "soul".

[ippy]

Well, it's the

Like it, it's a superior form of English, obviously, I didn't realise how deep you were Shakes.

Regards ippy

[Maeght]

In what way can control not be a reaction to previous events? In order to control a situation, one needs to react to the situation.

Best of luck with getting Alan to answer that one. No one has managed it yet.

[ekim]

I think this is evidence that a sense of singular personhood is actually a contrivance; rather we are a mess of competing fears and desires constantly churning underneath the surface

That is one of the difficulties which arises in practising meditation, dis-identifying with the contents of the psyche and consciously identifying with a still centre.