Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3879048 times)

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24375 on: December 06, 2017, 08:18:53 AM »
You may not be in complete control, but can you not admit to having any control of your thoughts, Gordon?  The scenario I am supposed to be convinced by does not allow any control because everything will be dictated by the uncontrollable forces of nature.

What does the 'you' refer to in that? Of course 'we' have (some) control over our thoughts (most of the time, if we're healthy) but what is the 'we'?

How do the 'you's and 'we's work? How do they make choices and exercise control? All you've done is added another (redundant) layer and moved the problem elsewhere so you can say "look! it mist be magic!".
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24376 on: December 06, 2017, 08:25:11 AM »
How about just stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control? We gather and evaluate all the information, we contemplate our options, we bring to bear our knowledge and experience, we consult our feelings, values, preferences, and beliefs. Finally, based on all that (or not, if we decide to act impulsively) we make a choice and act.

Nothing in the that is in any way incompatible with us being deterministic beings (the impulse my be (pseudo)-random). What exactly is the magic non-material part of us supposed to bring to the party?
But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice. 
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24377 on: December 06, 2017, 08:31:08 AM »
How about just stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control? We gather and evaluate all the information, we contemplate our options, we bring to bear our knowledge and experience, we consult our feelings, values, preferences, and beliefs. Finally, based on all that (or not, if we decide to act impulsively) we make a choice and act.

Nothing in the that is in any way incompatible with us being deterministic beings (the impulse my be (pseudo)-random). What exactly is the magic non-material part of us supposed to bring to the party?
But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice.

So you can't answer the question: what exactly is the magic non-material part of us supposed to bring to the party?

Where did I say that there wasn't a conscious self that is in control?

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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24378 on: December 06, 2017, 08:35:40 AM »
So you can't answer the question: what exactly is the magic non-material part of us supposed to bring to the party?
Well, it's the soul and it, like, does, like, souly stuff, innit.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24379 on: December 06, 2017, 09:20:23 AM »
But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice.
Again this just  demonstrates a  continuous feedback loop of data, emeging as a concious entity.
Giving your concious self the feeling of control.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24380 on: December 06, 2017, 12:33:49 PM »
Again this just  demonstrates a  continuous feedback loop of data, emeging as a concious entity.
Giving your concious self the feeling of control.
Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Suggest this to any creative artist and I can confidently predict what their opinion will be.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24381 on: December 06, 2017, 12:35:00 PM »
Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Suggest this to any creative artist and I can confidently predict what their opinion will be.
That makes them right, does it?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24382 on: December 06, 2017, 01:10:52 PM »
But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice.

That's how it feels, granted, but what we have found through research is that the conscious self itself is not fundamental, it is derivative.  It is subconscious mind that is really the driver of choice and action and conscious awareness of choices made lags slightly behind, along with a feeling of ownership over the choices just made. I know that is counterintuitive, it is not how it feels, but there again, how it feels is a poor guide to how things actually are in many respects.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24383 on: December 06, 2017, 01:13:28 PM »
But can you not see that the very act of stopping for a moment and thinking about how we make decisions and exert control must be under the control of my conscious self?  The fact is that we are consciously aware of these influencing factors in making our choices, and it is our conscious awareness which implements the final choice.
In my, increasingly stronglly held, opinion, your replies are getting sillier by the day.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24384 on: December 06, 2017, 01:14:33 PM »
Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Suggest this to any creative artist and I can confidently predict what their opinion will be.

Quite likely.  On the other hand, try suggesting it to a researcher in cognitive science or neuroscience.  It is they who would be more qualified to understand such things.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24385 on: December 06, 2017, 01:31:24 PM »
Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

You have yet to provide any alternative. "This is 'ard to understand, it must be magic" isn't actually an argument.

I see you've conveniently 'forgotten' my question as to what exactly this magic non-material thingy is actually supposed to be doing for us - since all the aspects of decision making are consistent with material, deterministic entities (#24374 and #24377).

You seem to be insisting on something without any function.
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24386 on: December 06, 2017, 02:23:05 PM »
That's how it feels, granted, but what we have found through research is that the conscious self itself is not fundamental, it is derivative.  It is subconscious mind that is really the driver of choice and action and conscious awareness of choices made lags slightly behind, along with a feeling of ownership over the choices just made. I know that is counterintuitive, it is not how it feels, but there again, how it feels is a poor guide to how things actually are in many respects.

I'm not even convinced about that, I mean, the conscious self being in charge.   I certainly get thoughts and feelings arriving unbidden in my mind.   Is AB really saying that I am creating them?   That seems counter-intuitive to me, let alone that some soul is manufacturing them.   How? Where? 
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24387 on: December 06, 2017, 02:48:48 PM »
I know that is counterintuitive, it is not how it feels, but there again, how it feels is a poor guide to how things actually are in many respects.
Unless you're a creative artist! They know all about these sorts of things, you know.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24388 on: December 06, 2017, 02:56:13 PM »
Where did I say that there wasn't a conscious self that is in control?
If you admit that the conscious self can exert control, you must admit to a source for that control.  And if you try to define this source in terms of the deterministic activity of material elements then it is not control at all, but the  inevitable reaction to previous events.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24389 on: December 06, 2017, 02:57:26 PM »
Do you seriously think I will be convinced that my conscious self (me) just comprises nothing more than a continuous feedback loop of data entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature?

Suggest this to any creative artist and I can confidently predict what their opinion will be.
I asked my wife, who is a creative artist.
 I also asked my son, who is a creative artist.

What does your prediction say that their opions are?

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24390 on: December 06, 2017, 03:06:46 PM »
Unless you're a creative artist! They know all about these sorts of things, you know.
They know their creativity is under their control - it is what they do.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24391 on: December 06, 2017, 03:09:35 PM »
You have yet to provide any alternative. "This is 'ard to understand, it must be magic" isn't actually an argument.

I see you've conveniently 'forgotten' my question as to what exactly this magic non-material thingy is actually supposed to be doing for us - since all the aspects of decision making are consistent with material, deterministic entities (#24374 and #24377).

You seem to be insisting on something without any function.
The function of the soul is to consciously perceive and exert conscious control in this material world.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24392 on: December 06, 2017, 03:15:45 PM »
They know their creativity is under their control - it is what they do.
Do they? How do you know that they "know"?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24393 on: December 06, 2017, 03:18:27 PM »
If you admit that the conscious self can exert control, you must admit to a source for that control.  And if you try to define this source in terms of the deterministic activity of material elements then it is not control at all, but the  inevitable reaction to previous events.

In what way can control not be a reaction to previous events? In order to control a situation, one needs to react to the situation.

The only logical alternative to being deterministic is to be random (as was discussed at great length before) - the very opposite of control.

The function of the soul is to consciously perceive and exert conscious control in this material world.

So, to repeat my previous point (that you are studiously avoiding), how do we do that? We gather and evaluate all the information, we contemplate our options, we bring to bear our knowledge and experience, we consult our feelings, values, preferences, and beliefs. Finally, based on all that (or not, if we decide to act impulsively) we make a choice and act.

None of which is incompatible with a deterministic, material entity. So what is the soul for?
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24394 on: December 06, 2017, 03:32:49 PM »
I'm not even convinced about that, I mean, the conscious self being in charge.   I certainly get thoughts and feelings arriving unbidden in my mind.   Is AB really saying that I am creating them?   That seems counter-intuitive to me, let alone that some soul is manufacturing them.   How? Where?

On that subject, I often get plagued by ear worms.  Sometimes I can't get to sleep at night because I can't stop some damn tune playing on endless loop in my head; like some irritating neighbours and their stereo, there's no way I can stop it.  The worst thing is, and this must be telling, that it is often some tune I don't even like.  Can you imagine trying to sleep when there is "Agadoo-doo-doo, push pineapple, shake the tree, Agadoo-doo-doo, push pineapple, grind coffee" playing over and over in your head.

I think this is evidence that a sense of singular personhood is actually a contrivance; rather we are a mess of competing fears and desires constantly churning underneath the surface 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24395 on: December 06, 2017, 03:38:26 PM »
On that subject, I often get plagued by ear worms.  Sometimes I can't get to sleep at night because I can't stop some damn tune playing on endless loop in my head; like some irritating neighbours and their stereo, there's no way I can stop it.  The worst thing is, and this must be telling, that it is often some tune I don't even like.  Can you imagine trying to sleep when there is "Agadoo-doo-doo, push pineapple, shake the tree, Agadoo-doo-doo, push pineapple, grind coffee" playing over and over in your head.

I think this is evidence that a sense of singular personhood is actually a contrivance; rather we are a mess of competing fears and desires constantly churning underneath the surface
The worst committees, , the silliest PMQs, the most horrendous conference calls are as naught in comparison to the cacophony of single 30 seconds of unchosen thoughts and feelings that are experienced by this entity(ies). Not only is what we experience a faulty guide to any truth, There seems to be enormous differences in those experiences.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24396 on: December 06, 2017, 03:49:02 PM »
They know their creativity is under their control - it is what they do.
According to one if them, they get most of their creative ideas from their subconcious so no real control at all.

 
However neither of them have stated a need for a "soul".
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24397 on: December 06, 2017, 03:53:43 PM »
Well, it's the

Like it, it's a superior form of English, obviously, I didn't realise how deep you were Shakes.

Regards ippy

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24398 on: December 06, 2017, 03:54:41 PM »
In what way can control not be a reaction to previous events? In order to control a situation, one needs to react to the situation.

Best of luck with getting Alan to answer that one. No one has managed it yet.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24399 on: December 06, 2017, 04:03:18 PM »

I think this is evidence that a sense of singular personhood is actually a contrivance; rather we are a mess of competing fears and desires constantly churning underneath the surface
That is one of the difficulties which arises in practising meditation, dis-identifying with the contents of the psyche and consciously identifying with a still centre.