Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

NOT RANDOM BUT SPIRITUALLY DETERMINED

Spiritually determined is still determined, as is quickly determined or slowly determined or readily determined, it is still determined, bottom line.  Whatever adverb, whatever colour font you use, it still comes down to the same logic.  A desire that is formed for a reason is a consequence of that reason; if it is formed for no reason, then it is random.

[Maeght]

NOT RANDOM BUT SPIRITUALLY DETERMINED

Is the spiritually determined random or predetermined? Try answering that in big red letters why don't you.

[Stranger]

It isn't gibberish at all. What I am asking is what determines a) the choice of a relationship with God or against him. And does whatever it is fall within the classic definitions of determinism or any understanding of randomness?

It doesn't matter a jot what a choice is about, Vlad. It doesn't even matter if it's a choice. It's a general principle that any event of any kind can only be determined or random or a combination (like a probability distribution, for example).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It doesn't matter a jot what a choice is about, Vlad. It doesn't even matter if it's a choice. It's a general principle that any event of any kind can only be determined or random or a combination (like a probability distribution, for example).

Yes and i'm asking you what as a general principle is it that determines an event and is it applicable in this case and for you to demonstrate your general principle in the case of the example I have given.

In other words there seems to have been a lot of ''Hilltalk'' culminating in a decision seemingly unexemplified which somehow strangely established a general principle.

[Alan Burns]

FIFY

It's either random or determined - the word "spiritually" is meaningless.

If my conscious actions are not spiritually determined, then they are entirely determined by previous physical events over which I have no control.  "Physically determined" is totally meaningless, because in this scenario nothing can have meaning because everything comprises inevitable uncontrollable consequences to previous physical events.  "Spiritually determined" gives meaning and purpose to our lives.

[Nearly Sane]

If my conscious actions are not spiritually determined, then they are entirely determined by previous physical events over which I have no control.  "Physically determined" is totally meaningless, because in this scenario nothing can have meaning because everything comprises inevitable uncontrollable consequences to previous physical events.  "Spiritually determined" gives meaning and purpose to our lives.

Using the terms spiritually and physically here is no more meaningful than greenly and furiously.

[torridon]

"Spiritually determined" gives meaning and purpose to our lives.

"Spiritually determined" is really just noise.  There is no evidence or underlying rationale for what 'spiritual' consists of in this context, or at least none that is not self-referential.  It's just noise that you seem to find appealing; the rest of us just see it for what it is - meaningless noise.

[Stranger]

Yes and i'm asking you what as a general principle is it that determines an event and is it applicable in this case and for you to demonstrate your general principle in the case of the example I have given.

In other words there seems to have been a lot of ''Hilltalk'' culminating in a decision seemingly unexemplified which somehow strangely established a general principle.

The general principle is easy enough to see - do you need it explained?

The specific case of a (any) human decision will be intractably complex, which is why I said that for all practical purposes we have a kind of 'free will'. The point being that "intractably complex" for humans would be no problem for an omniscient god.

[Stranger]

If my conscious actions are not spiritually determined, then they are entirely determined by previous physical events over which I have no control.  "Physically determined" is totally meaningless, because in this scenario nothing can have meaning because everything comprises inevitable uncontrollable consequences to previous physical events.  "Spiritually determined" gives meaning and purpose to our lives.

If they determined, then they are entirely determined by previous events and comprise inevitable uncontrollable consequences to previous events (as you put it).

Adding 'spiritual' or 'physical' doesn't change the meaning of 'determined'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The general principle is easy enough to see - do you need it explained?

The specific case of a (any) human decision will be intractably complex, which is why I said that for all practical purposes we have a kind of 'free will'. The point being that "intractably complex" for humans would be no problem for an omniscient god.

General principle for what? Determinism, randomism or the third option you have smuggled in.

Please apply each if you will to the decision to enter a personal relationship with or against God and another example for comparison.

[Stranger]

General principle for what determinism, randomism or the third option you have smuggled in.

There was no third option.

Please apply each if you will to the decision to enter a personal relationship with or against God and another example for comparison.

Sorry, "intractably complex" means too hard (for humans) to unravel.  Your question is a bit like asking somebody to explain why your word processor crashed using the quantum mechanics of every fundamental particle that was involved. We know it that it happened (ultimately) because of the principles of QM, but only a god would be able to grasp the details...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There was no third option.

really?

It doesn't matter a jot what a choice is about, Vlad. It doesn't even matter if it's a choice. It's a general principle that any event of any kind can only be determined or random or a combination (like a probability distribution, for example).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sorry, "intractably complex" means too hard (for humans) to unravel.

irrelevent since your claim is

It's a general principle that any event of any kind can only be determined or random or a combination (like a probability distribution, for example).

I am asking you to make good your claim that it is one of the three.

[Alan Burns]

If they determined, then they are entirely determined by previous events and comprise inevitable uncontrollable consequences to previous events (as you put it).

Adding 'spiritual' or 'physical' doesn't change the meaning of 'determined'.

But I still have the demonstrable option to consciously choose - as do you.  I know beyond any doubt that I am not entirely driven by past events - I have conscious control over my life.  My actions are determined, but not dictated.

[Stranger]

I am asking you to make good your claim that it is one of the three.

Try not to be silly, Vlad. The principle is easy enough to see and rests only on logic.

Not only are human minds far too complex to analyse at that level of detail, but it would be ridiculously improbable that any two minds would be the same anyway, and in any case, we don't have a theory of everything yet, so we couldn't do it even if it was much simpler.

It's actually an open question as to whether the universe is deterministic or not.

Oh, and just to add: and if we have souls, then we'd have no idea how to analyse them anyway, but unless you suggest that they can defy logic, then the principle must apply to them too.

[floo]

You have just aptly demonstrated that you have the conscious will to respond to my post and deny that this action is evidence of your power to wilfully interact!   

I haven't demonstrated that any god is behind my response to your posts.

[Stranger]

But I still have the demonstrable option to consciously choose - as do you.

What do you think ignoring the actual points put to you and just repeating your assertions, actually achieves? Yes, we have the ability to consciously choose - as we would in both the magic non-material case and the realistic material case.

I know beyond any doubt that I am not entirely driven by past events...

How?

...I have conscious control over my life.

Nobody is arguing against that.

My actions are determined, but not dictated.

Yes, exactly. As I said, it isn't about being dictated to, it's about what we are.

[floo]

What do you think ignoring the actual points put to you and just repeating your assertions, actually achieves? Yes, we have the ability to consciously choose - as we would in both the magic non-material case and the realistic material case.

How?

Nobody is arguing against that.

Yes, exactly. As I said, it isn't about being dictated to, it's about what we are.

Agreed, it is a pity AB can't clock that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Try not to be silly, Vlad. The principle is easy enough to see and rests only on logic.

Not only are human minds far too complex to analyse at that level of detail, but it would be ridiculously improbable that any two minds would be the same anyway, and in any case, we don't have a theory of everything yet, so we couldn't do it even if it was much simpler.

It's actually an open question as to whether the universe is deterministic or not.

I think we agree then determinism remains as a philosophy which is where the world puts it at the moment. Thanks.

[Stranger]

I think we agree then determinism remains as a philosophy which is where the world puts it at the moment. Thanks.

The determinism/randomness argument is logical one - which you can class as philosophy, if you want - but unless you can offer a refutation...

[torridon]

But I still have the demonstrable option to consciously choose - as do you.  I know beyond any doubt that I am not entirely driven by past events - I have conscious control over my life.  My actions are determined, but not dictated.

The choices you make reflect what you want and you cannot choose what to want.  Indeed, such a scenario is incoherent.  Have you tried wanting something that you don't want yet ?  Our desires generally do not come out of the blue for no reason; there is a reason for things; a desire that sprang from no reason whatsoever would be a random occurrence.  This is really really simple.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The determinism/randomness argument is logical one - which you can class as philosophy, if you want - but unless you can offer a refutation...

NPF fallacy?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The determinism/randomness argument is logical one - which you can class as philosophy, if you want - but unless you can offer a refutation...

Put it this way it could be argued there can be no clues from the material world on how to go with a relationship with God. No material determinant to make the choice nothing except your own self.

[Stranger]

NPF fallacy?

Something else you don't understand. This is an actual logical statement that is open to criticism and (potentially) refutation.

[Stranger]

Put it this way it could be argued there can be no clues from the material world on how to go with a relationship with God. No material determinant to make the choice nothing except your own self.

Yes but "your own self" does things - it has to arrive at its choices somehow - choices are events.