Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

The difference is that physical chains of cause and effect trace back to the beginning of time, with no possibility of any outside source of interaction.
A spiritually invoked choice derives from the conscious will of the human soul, which is aware of past events, but not controlled by them.

Gibberish squared.

[SusanDoris]

I would lay a small wager, Shakerly, that the vast majority of posters on here have watched many note films outside the cinema than inside.

It has been a whole day of 'this page can't be displayed' so I have spent the last half hour catching up - it would have taken longer only I missed out most of Vlad's posts!

Re films: That might not apply to me!!! I have watched only very few films on TV during the last 15 years. I do not feel seriously deprived or anything though!

[Maeght]

The difference is that physical chains of cause and effect trace back to the beginning of time, with no possibility of any outside source of interaction.
A spiritually invoked choice derives from the conscious will of the human soul, which is aware of past events, but not controlled by them.

So on what basis does the human soul decide what choice to make?

[Stranger]

The difference is that physical chains of cause and effect trace back to the beginning of time, with no possibility of any outside source of interaction.

You still aren't paying any attention. You seemed to actually understand the problem (eventually) last time we had this conversation - did you learn nothing at all?

Everybody who has read your posts already knows that you think the soul interacts with the physical world and so is external to that - but the soul has to work somehow as well, and it's the internal working of the soul that needs to be compared to the working of a physical brain. As soon as you talk of an "outside source of interaction", you are avoiding the question. There can be no "outside source of interaction" to this soul thingy of yours - any more than there can be for a physical brain.

A spiritually invoked choice derives from the conscious will of the human soul, which is aware of past events, but not controlled by them.

To the extent that a soul's actions are not predetermined by its past (experience, nature) and its current situation, they must be random - there is no other option. No "outside source of interaction".

We are not talking about our "free will" being controlled by anything but about how our free will actually works - what it actually is.

[ippy]

I think it would be fair if everybody stopped criticising Alan leave him alone so that he can make up anything he likes, he could even inherit or be inspired by J K Rowling's talent and continue on in her well established mould, but then, maybe not.

The assertions can't get any more bizarre than they are and have been for some time now.

I don't know call certain ideas potty, then say but it's my belief and that declaration is supposed to remove these certain ideas out of the potty zone?

ippy

[Shaker]

The potty zone ... the mind goes back in time ... goes back to the 1970s ... goes back to Michael Bentine on the telly ... goes back to POTTY TIME!!

https://youtu.be/fqXiqiC5dS8

[torridon]

I am not nature's Robot.

I can see it is demeaning to put it that way.  Maybe a better form of words would be to say you are a logic being.  Not that I'm endorsing your views as logical, but rather, that it recognises that there is deep logic underpinning all things in the universe, and the choices we make and the actions we take are all manifestations ultimately of that profound logic.  It is better than being an illogic being, surely.

Yesterday, I hear some bloke in Wolverhampton cemented his head into a microwave oven.

http://www.newsweek.com/man-cements-head-microwave-and-nearly-dies-because-thats-not-what-kitchen-743261

Maybe there's not much entertainment in Wolverhampton, I guess.  But whatever, we can assume that he wanted to cement his head inside an oven, and there must have been some reason or reasons that led to this guy forming that desire.  Even the most bizarre, most outrageous, most seemingly inexplicable choices will have some explanation through the curious pathways of cause and effect.

[Alan Burns]

I don't see any rationale or evidence to justify a 'spiritually deterministic being'.  I think it is just made up noise to obscure the logic of choice.

You will claim no doubt that a 'spiritually deterministic being' can take into account relevant considerations but not be dictated by them. So how does such a being arrive at a final choice without reference to any further relevant considerations without being random ?

It is one of the functions of our self awareness to be able to consciously choose an option at will, rather than by an automated reaction to events.

[Gordon]

It is one of the functions of our self awareness to be able to consciously choose an option at will, rather than by an automated reaction to events.

What if the feeling of being able to 'consciously choose' is in itself just an 'automated reaction to events'?

[Alan Burns]

So on what basis does the human soul decide what choice to make?

Conscious choice is a conscious choice!  It is done by an act of conscious will.  It is not automated by past events.

[Alan Burns]

You still aren't paying any attention. You seemed to actually understand the problem (eventually) last time we had this conversation - did you learn nothing at all?

Everybody who has read your posts already knows that you think the soul interacts with the physical world and so is external to that - but the soul has to work somehow as well, and it's the internal working of the soul that needs to be compared to the working of a physical brain. As soon as you talk of an "outside source of interaction", you are avoiding the question. There can be no "outside source of interaction" to this soul thingy of yours - any more than there can be for a physical brain.

To the extent that a soul's actions are not predetermined by its past (experience, nature) and its current situation, they must be random - there is no other option. No "outside source of interaction".

We are not talking about our "free will" being controlled by anything but about how our free will actually works - what it actually is.

The soul does not work like the physical brain.  It has the conscious ability to invoke a choice at will.  Willpower is not shackled by previous events.  Neither is it random.  It is simply an act of will.

[Alan Burns]

I can see it is demeaning to put it that way.  Maybe a better form of words would be to say you are a logic being.  Not that I'm endorsing your views as logical, but rather, that it recognises that there is deep logic underpinning all things in the universe, and the choices we make and the actions we take are all manifestations ultimately of that profound logic.  It is better than being an illogic being, surely.

Yesterday, I hear some bloke in Wolverhampton cemented his head into a microwave oven.

http://www.newsweek.com/man-cements-head-microwave-and-nearly-dies-because-thats-not-what-kitchen-743261

Maybe there's not much entertainment in Wolverhampton, I guess.  But whatever, we can assume that he wanted to cement his head inside an oven, and there must have been some reason or reasons that led to this guy forming that desire.  Even the most bizarre, most outrageous, most seemingly inexplicable choices will have some explanation through the curious pathways of cause and effect.

I think this is a classic example of how some people can misuse their powers of free will.

[torridon]

It is one of the functions of our self awareness to be able to consciously choose an option at will, rather than by an automated reaction to events.

That's not answering the previous question, it is merely avoiding any meaningful answer.  Clearly 'will' is involved in making a choice; clearly 'consciousness' is sometimes involved in making a choice.  But you aren't saying by what considerations this 'will' arrives at a decision.  Any event is either a function of something prior or it is not.  If it is not then it is random.  If it is a function of something prior then those prior events are its determinants. A choice is an event, so to be meaningful and not random, a choice must be a function of prior determinants.  This must be true irrespective of the mechanism, be it will, computer, AI bot, soul or whatever.

[torridon]

The soul does not work like the physical brain.  It has the conscious ability to invoke a choice at will.  Willpower is not shackled by previous events.  Neither is it random.  It is simply an act of will.

Will is formed by previous events.  A desire that just suddenly appeared out of thin air for absolutely no reason, is random, by definition.

[Stranger]

The soul does not work like the physical brain.  It has the conscious ability to invoke a choice at will.  Willpower is not shackled by previous events.  Neither is it random.  It is simply an act of will.

But how does an "act of free will" get produced? You simply can't have an act that is not determined by previous events and not random (or some combination), any more than you can have a square circle.

Saying "it is simply an act of will" is as vacuous as saying "it's magic"...

[Stranger]

Conscious choice is a conscious choice!  It is done by an act of conscious will.  It is not automated by past events.

It's magic, it's magic, it's magic! It works by magicness in the magical magic way!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Will is formed by previous events.  A desire that just suddenly appeared out of thin air for absolutely no reason, is random, by definition.

Can you give an example?
Do things or situations not suddenly appear? How does your theory tie in with novelty and emergence since IMO you are viewing everything in terms of conditioning.

[ippy]

The soul does not work like the physical brain.  It has the conscious ability to invoke a choice at will.  Willpower is not shackled by previous events.  Neither is it random.  It is simply an act of will.

Alan, how come you've never revealed the source of these knowledgeable acquisitions you're claiming to have, they're expressed in such elaborate detail, information about detailed knowledge that you have never been able to substantiate and at the same time you manage to convey with such unshakeable certainty that you know all about the inner workings of this soul thing you constantly keep on referring to?

Unless I'm mistaken no one throughout history and right up to this time has ever found any kind of evidence that would support or substantiate this soul idea of yours Alan,, as though they, whatever a soul is, can establish that it really exists.

Alan, please bear in mind I'm not asking how this soul idea of yours behaves, I would like to know where the evidence is or where can it be found, so that for once and all time it could be substantiated that this, at present only an idea, soul of yours does in fact exist with some form of accompanying proof that it really does exist?   

Necessarily kind regards ippy

[floo]

Alan, how come you've never revealed the source of these knowledgeable acquisitions you're claiming to have, they're expressed in such elaborate detail, information about detailed knowledge that you have never been able to substantiate and at the same time you manage to convey with such unshakeable certainty that you know all about the inner workings of this soul thing you constantly keep on referring to?

Unless I'm mistaken no one throughout history and right up to this time has ever found any kind of evidence that would support or substantiate this soul idea of yours Alan,, as though they, whatever a soul is, can establish that it really exists.

Alan, please bear in mind I'm not asking how this soul idea of yours behaves, I would like to know where the evidence is or where can it be found, so that for once and all time it could be substantiated that this, at present only an idea, soul of yours does in fact exist with some form of accompanying proof that it really does exist?   

Necessarily kind regards ippy

Don't hold your breath.

[Maeght]

Conscious choice is a conscious choice!  It is done by an act of conscious will.  It is not automated by past events.

On what basis does it make its choice? This is a simple question you never sm to get. You have to make a choice between options A and B, what makes you cjoose one or the othet. Is it previous experince that one option is netter than theother, a rzndom choice, orwhat. That is the question regardless of what you believe makes the choice.

[Maeght]

Can you give an example?
Do things or situations not suddenly appear? How does your theory tie in with novelty and emergence since IMO you are viewing everything in terms of conditioning.

You've asked this before and it has been addressed. Why not take a look back.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You've asked this before and it has been addressed. Why not take a look back.

I do not recall novelty or emergence being satisfactorily addressed by the reductionist fraternity(The hole in the wall gang). Could you please answer the question or provide reference?

[Maeght]

I do not recall novelty or emergence being satisfactorily addressed by the reductionist fraternity(The hole in the wall gang). Could you please answer the question or provide reference?

Its been discussed. You may not have been satisfied by the answer but you can look back at what was said then come back with your concerns. Would save a lot of time.

[Stranger]

I do not recall novelty or emergence being satisfactorily addressed by the reductionist fraternity(The hole in the wall gang). Could you please answer the question or provide reference?

Emergent phenomena don't appear from nothing Vald, they are the result of the interactions of simpler stuff. It's not too difficult to find out about it: click here.

[Alan Burns]

On what basis does it make its choice? This is a simple question you never sm to get. You have to make a choice between options A and B, what makes you cjoose one or the othet. Is it previous experince that one option is netter than theother, a rzndom choice, orwhat. That is the question regardless of what you believe makes the choice.

I make the choice.
I have the power to do it when and where and how I want, regardless of past events.
I am my soul.