Searching for GOD...

[Enki]

I am truly grateful for all the responses I get on this thread which enable me to continue to witness to the truth of God's existence.

Then, as a mark of your gratitude, could you please try to stop making silly assertions, try to put up some arguments which hold water and, at least, try to understand how evolution works.

[Shaker]

The concrete evidence is you, Ippy, and your ability to freely interact with this world, rather than just be a biological machine entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature.

And the evidence for this assertion is ...?

Oh I forgot - you don't have any.

At all.

[Shaker]

Then, as a mark of your gratitude, could you please try to stop making silly assertions, try to put up some arguments which hold water and, at least, try to understand how evolution works.

He's not that grateful.

[Stranger]

The concrete evidence is you, Ippy, and your ability to freely interact with this world, rather than just be a biological machine entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature.

[irrelevant word indicated]

It is simply untrue that the human "ability to freely interact with this world" is evidence that we are not "biological machines entirely driven by the forces of nature", let alone evidence of your other assertions.

You are bearing false witness.

[ippy]

People often look upon Christians as not very happy people, having to comply with lots of rules and feeling guilty when they fail.

Yesterday was Gaudete Sunday, translated to mean Rejoice Sunday.  A time for all Christians to rejoice for the coming celebration of our Saviour's birth.  One of the readings at yesterday's Mass encourages Christians "to be happy at all times".  I know there are many Christians who seem to dwell on doom and gloom, but I, along with many others, find indescribable joy in knowing God's love and accepting Him as our Saviour.  So I certainly do not see my experience on this forum as a penance.  It is a true joy to be able to witness to my faith, and in doing so it brings me closer to God and enriches my faith in Him.

December 25th Isaac Newton's birthday celebrations, he really existed, and his works are far more useful than the supposed bronze age bloke's.

Yes he was a religious believer, not so surprising when you realise that it was the only game in town before the enlightenment, that is if you wanted an education of any kind.

Regards ippy

[ippy]

The concrete evidence is you, Ippy, and your ability to freely interact with this world, rather than just be a biological machine entirely driven by the

You've no idea Alan, I suppose if you've no idea, why not make up a load of stuff? And you do.

Necessarily kind regards ippy

[Alan Burns]

[irrelevant word indicated]

It is simply untrue that the human "ability to freely interact with this world" is evidence that we are not "biological machines entirely driven by the uncontrollable forces of nature", let alone evidence of your other assertions.

You are bearing false witness.

Why do you say that the word "uncontrollable" is irrelevant?  If there is control over natures forces, it must have a source (ie you).  If there is no control, we are all just riding the waves which are driven entirely by nature.

[Shaker]

What if we are? You can sob into your Thomas the Tank Engine pillowcase about it every night if you want to - many of the rest of us aren't fussed.

[ippy]

What an interesting question. AB gets a lot of stick for his views, so maybe membership of this forum is a kind of penance for his sins.

Can't quite remember where Floo, but he did allude to doing penance somewhere a way back amongst his posts, the poor deluded sod.

He really does believe this religious stuff Floo, sad init?

regards ippy

[wigginhall]

Why do you say that the word "uncontrollable" is irrelevant?  If there is control over natures forces, it must have a source (ie you).  If there is no control, we are all just riding the waves which are driven entirely by nature.

Well, I find the word 'uncontrollable' confusing.   For example, the tides are controlled by the effects of gravity from moon and sun; the rate of growth in plants in spring is controlled by day length, and the effects of water, warmthand nutrients.    Of course, one can multiply examples almost indefinitely.   Therefore, if someone says that the tides are uncontrollable, that just sounds idiotic.

But I think that Alan is using 'control' to mean 'intelligent control', which leads him into various circular arguments.   Thus, intelligent control can only happen when intelligence is present.   Genius.

[Stranger]

Why do you say that the word "uncontrollable" is irrelevant?  If there is control over natures forces, it must have a source (ie you).  If there is no control, we are all just riding the waves which are driven entirely by nature.

As wiggs has said, there is all sorts of control going on in nature - and as I have said before, you seem to want to dishonestly co-opt the word to mean something magical. Our freedom and control over what we do, says nothing about our internal processes that, all the evidence suggests, are entirely natural.

You continually ignore the fact that a part of reality is us and it has to have internal processes (even if you want to make them non-material).

[Alan Burns]

What if we are? You can sob into your Thomas the Tank Engine pillowcase about it every night if you want to - many of the rest of us aren't fussed.

But the obvious truth is that we do have control.  How can you possibly assume that you are not in control of your thoughts, words and actions?  Am I conversing with a robot?

[wigginhall]

(reply to Stranger), yes, we are part of nature, but I suppose some theists have a horror of this, and want a special dispensation for the soul, which stands outside nature, and 'controls' it.    But our minds are also part of nature, just as much as breathing is.

[Shaker]

But the obvious truth is that we do have control.  How can you possibly assume that you are not in control of your thoughts, words and actions?  Am I conversing with a robot?

I certainly am.

[Stranger]

(reply to Stranger), yes, we are part of nature, but I suppose some theists have a horror of this, and want a special dispensation for the soul, which stands outside nature, and 'controls' it.

Also, even if we were to ignore the evidence and accept the notion that a soul is somehow separate and apart from nature, it still has to have an internal decision making process; it has to decide what it wants to do in order for it to exercise any control. We then face the same logical problem that you get with material systems: to the extent they are not deterministic, they must be random.

Insisting that we have a non-physical soul really doesn't get us anywhere in understanding consciousness or "free will"...

[Alan Burns]

Well, I find the word 'uncontrollable' confusing.   For example, the tides are controlled by the effects of gravity from moon and sun; the rate of growth in plants in spring is controlled by day length, and the effects of water, warmthand nutrients.    Of course, one can multiply examples almost indefinitely.   Therefore, if someone says that the tides are uncontrollable, that just sounds idiotic.

But I think that Alan is using 'control' to mean 'intelligent control', which leads him into various circular arguments.   Thus, intelligent control can only happen when intelligence is present.   Genius.

What I mean is conscious control.  Such things as tides, gravity, moon orbits, plants etc are not examples of consciously driven control.  Surely you can see the difference?

[Alan Burns]

Also, even if we were to ignore the evidence and accept the notion that a soul is somehow separate and apart from nature, it still has to have an internal decision making process; it has to decide what it wants to do in order for it to exercise any control. We then face the same logical problem that you get with material systems: to the extent they are not deterministic, they must be random.

Insisting that we have a non-physical soul really doesn't get us anywhere in understanding consciousness or "free will"...

You do not seem to appreciate that there is a difference between consciously driven interaction and deterministic reaction. 

[Stranger]

You do not seem to appreciate that there is a difference between consciously driven interaction and deterministic reaction.

Back to the meaningless mantras. How about addressing the point I made?

You can't get to have "consciously driven" anything without a conscious decision being made. You can't get a decision unless there is a decision making process and that process has to be either a fully deterministic reaction (to its current state - its history, who it is - and its current situation) or it has some random element.

You can't escape the logic by pretending that the words "consciously driven interaction" are a magic spell that makes the problem disappear...

[Gordon]

You do not seem to appreciate that there is a difference between consciously driven interaction and deterministic reaction.

Nope - unless you are thinking truly random thoughts, which I suspect is impossible, then your thinking is consequential to preceding events/thoughts/memories/sensations etc etc etc - whether you like it or not.

[SusanDoris]

If I had nightmares, which fortunately I don't, except for one I remember from my childhood, I think my idea of a worst one would be that AB's views are indoctrinated into  all the world's children.

And then I wonder whether the world is partly in the middle of this nightmare since far too many children are in fact being thus indoctrinated.

[Sebastian Toe]

I would have thought it was obvious that I was referring to the spiritual state which is not part of this material universe, but where our spiritual soul resides.

..and where is Heaven in relation to those two entirely different places?

[ippy]

You do not seem to appreciate that there is a difference between consciously driven interaction and deterministic reaction.

Ever heard that expression 'cloud cuckoo land', Alan?

Necessarily kind regards ippy

[SusanDoris]

Ever heard that expression 'cloud cuckoo land', Alan?

It springs to mind every time I read one of AB's posts!

[ippy]

If I had nightmares, which fortunately I don't, except for one I remember from my childhood, I think my idea of a worst one would be that AB's views are indoctrinated into  all the world's children.

And then I wonder whether the world is partly in the middle of this nightmare since far too many children are in fact being thus indoctrinated.

Yes Susan, indoctrinating the children, I think that's the worst of the things these people do, if it wasn't for that I'd feel a lot more  accommodating toward their strange ways and ideas.

We've a potty group that goes around here and other nearby towns, the same lot, they're out there in all weathers dragging these poor children around with them, the children all look bored out of their sculls, and there they are these 'physically' adult people banging their drum, rattling their symbols and quoting the exactly similar unsupported rubbish/nonsense Alan keeps on coming out with.

I wonder why the quotes they keep on coming out with are exactly similar to Alan's? Puzzling that, I don't think.

Kind regards ippy

[Robbie]

I am truly grateful for all the responses I get on this thread which enable me to continue to witness to the truth of God's existence.

Some of us might be eternally grateful if you posted on other threads occasionally rather than stick to this one which is full of repetition, goes on forever and gets nowhere.

'A Pagan Vindicated' could do with a Catholic's opinion & you're the only one on R&E as far as I know.