Searching for GOD...

[wigginhall]

What I mean is conscious control.  Such things as tides, gravity, moon orbits, plants etc are not examples of consciously driven control.  Surely you can see the difference?

You have a nerve giving me a question like that, when you have consistently used the word 'uncontrollable' to mean something else.    So when you talk about the uncontrollable forces of nature, you are playing semantic games, which are dishonest. 

[wigginhall]

Also, even if we were to ignore the evidence and accept the notion that a soul is somehow separate and apart from nature, it still has to have an internal decision making process; it has to decide what it wants to do in order for it to exercise any control. We then face the same logical problem that you get with material systems: to the extent they are not deterministic, they must be random.

Insisting that we have a non-physical soul really doesn't get us anywhere in understanding consciousness or "free will"...

Well, that's a good summary.   A lot of these discussions are bedevilled by equivocation - see Alan with his 'uncontrollable' which he gives his own meaning to.    Free will is the same - what does 'free' exactly mean?   Alan seems to use it to mean without prior causes, but you also see people use it to mean 'unimpeded', and of course, the ability to choose.

The idea of having no cause for a decision is gibberish really, but I suppose it's borrowing from the idea of God as the causeless cause.

[Dicky Underpants]

December 25th Isaac Newton's birthday celebrations, he really existed, and his works are far more useful than the supposed bronze age bloke's.

Yes he was a religious believer, not so surprising when you realise that it was the only game in town before the enlightenment, that is if you wanted an education of any kind.

Regards ippy

Ah - but his religious beliefs were heretical

[Alan Burns]

Nope - unless you are thinking truly random thoughts, which I suspect is impossible, then your thinking is consequential to preceding events/thoughts/memories/sensations etc etc etc - whether you like it or not.

Influenced by, but not fully determined by.  Our conscious awareness is allowed the final choice, implemented by the conscious will of my human soul, which is not pre determined, neither is it random.

[Shaker]

Ah - but his religious beliefs were heretical

I love the etymology of that word, me.

[Gordon]

Influenced by, but not fully determined by.  Our conscious awareness is allowed the final choice, implemented by the conscious will of my human soul, which is not pre determined, neither is it random.

'Determined by' is reality I'm afraid: and the only reason you resist determinism is your pathological need to manufacture a spurious gap for your redundant God/soul notion to inhabit.

[ippy]

Ah - but his religious beliefs were heretical

Can't be bad.

Regards ippy

[Alan Burns]

You have a nerve giving me a question like that, when you have consistently used the word 'uncontrollable' to mean something else.    So when you talk about the uncontrollable forces of nature, you are playing semantic games, which are dishonest.

My concept of control has always referred to the power of the human soul to consciously interact with nature in order to exert conscious control.  If you deny this power of interaction, the forces of nature will not be under any conscious control - hence uncontrollable.

[Alan Burns]

Can't quite remember where Floo, but he did allude to doing penance somewhere a way back amongst his posts, the poor deluded sod.

He really does believe this religious stuff Floo, sad init?

regards ippy

Perhaps you did not read my reply to Floo:

People often look upon Christians as not very happy people, having to comply with lots of rules and feeling guilty when they fail.

Yesterday was Gaudete Sunday, translated to mean Rejoice Sunday.  A time for all Christians to rejoice for the coming celebration of our Saviour's birth.  One of the readings at yesterday's Mass encourages Christians "to be happy at all times".  I know there are many Christians who seem to dwell on doom and gloom, but I, along with many others, find indescribable joy in knowing God's love and accepting Him as our Saviour.  So I certainly do not see my experience on this forum as a penance.  It is a true joy to be able to witness to my faith, and in doing so it brings me closer to God and enriches my faith in Him.

My family have just returned from a carol service on our village green which was well attended by many of our local community.  Our son played with the brass band accompanying the carols.  It was a wonderful, happy occasion.  I just wish that more people could share the joy of being a Christian, and my aim on this thread is to help remove some of the false obstacles which prevent people from finding God.  I see no valid reason not to believe.

[Robbie]

I wish you would read back a bit, Alan.

[Gordon]

My concept of control has always referred to the power of the human soul to consciously interact with nature in order to exert conscious control.

Then your 'concept of control' is nonsense since your soul claim is incoherent.

If you deny this power of interaction, the forces of nature will not be under any conscious control - hence uncontrollable.

You are also free and easy with terminology since 'uncontrollable' in relation to 'forces of nature' doesn't work very well outwith your own biology: try using your 'conscious control' to stop the tides tomorrow and let us know how it went (albeit I'm sure it would make the news if you were successful).

[Alan Burns]

'Determined by' is reality I'm afraid: and the only reason you resist determinism is your pathological need to manufacture a spurious gap for your redundant God/soul notion to inhabit.

I resist the materialistic view of determinism because it denies the reality that I have conscious control of my own actions.  God has given us this gift to interact, and I use it.

[Alan Burns]

Then your 'concept of control' is nonsense since your soul claim is incoherent.

You are also free and easy with terminology since 'uncontrollable' in relation to 'forces of nature' doesn't work very well outwith your own biology: try using your 'conscious control' to stop the tides tomorrow and let us know how it went (albeit I'm sure it would make the news if you were successful).

My conscious control applies to what I can achieve with my physical body.

[Gordon]

I resist the materialistic view of determinism because it denies the reality that I have conscious control of my own actions.

No, Alan - the extent to which you think you control your own actions is just your biology doing what it does.

God has given us this gift to interact, and I use it.

You can 'interact' till the cows come home so long as your biology keeps working - that is all you need.

[Gordon]

My conscious control applies to what I can achieve with my physical body.

So you have functioning biology: no shit Sherlock - we've all got that until such times as we don't.

[Shaker]

Perhaps you did not read my reply to Floo

Perhaps, like me, he did read it and thought it was irrelevant ordure.

My family have just returned from a carol service on our village green which was well attended by many of our local community.  Our son played with the brass band accompanying the carols.  It was a wonderful, happy occasion. I just wish that more people could share the joy of being a Christian, and my aim on this thread is to help remove some of the false obstacles which prevent people from finding God. 

Bless. The argument from rosy-cheeked young urchins, their little eyes adew with pious tears in the lambent candlelight, a type II diabetes-inducing scene worthy of Dickens at his most saccharine (and that's saying something).

Here's another question for you to ignore as though you've never seen it, even though you will: how do you think your aim is  working out?

Ignore away. You always do, don't you?

[Shaker]

I wish you would read back a bit, Alan.

I just wish he'd read.

[Sebastian Toe]

my aim on this thread is to help remove some of the false obstacles which prevent people from finding God. 

Have you ever stopped to wonder that there might be a real, actual fact, rock solid obstacle?
And that obstacle would be you!

[torridon]

Influenced by, but not fully determined by.  Our conscious awareness is allowed the final choice, implemented by the conscious will of my human soul, which is not pre determined, neither is it random.

That's just incoherent nonsense rolled out unthinkingly for the thousandth time.  A final choice must be either a consequence born of the relevant considerations, or it is not.  If it is not, that defines it as random.  This is simply what the words mean, this is simply what is implied in the logic of choice and it matters not a jot whether the relevant considerations are considered consciously or subconsciously or spiritually or serruptitously or quickly or slowly, these things make no profound difference to the logic of the notion of choice.  You're like the man who keeps on insisting that a ton of bricks weighs more than a ton of feathers because bricks are obviously heavier than feathers init, somehow just not getting it. You seem to have a peculiar blindness to this point of logic.

[Stranger]

I resist the materialistic view of determinism because it denies the reality that I have conscious control of my own actions.

So much nonsense in so few words!

Firstly, there is no "materialistic view of determinism". Determinism (as I said before in #24772 and you've ignored) is just the notion that every event is fully determined by the set of reasons (logical antecedents) why it happened.

Did you get that this time?

The physical universe may or may not be a deterministic system - if we take quantum probabilities to be fundamental, then it isn't, making your insistence on linking determinism the physical or material world even more daft.

Secondly, no determinism does not deny that you have conscious control of your own actions. As I have said before, part of reality is you and that part of reality can do as it pleases - whether it is deterministic in what it pleases to do, or not (which is to say there is a random element in what it pleases to do).

That logic applies just as much to any soul you may want to postulate, as it does to a brain.

[Alan Burns]

That's just incoherent nonsense rolled out unthinkingly for the thousandth time. ....

So what do you think is the cause for me to deliberately roll out what you claim to be nonsense?  Am I not driven by my own conscious will? Or was it just an uncontrollable reaction to everything which has gone before?

[floo]

Perhaps you did not read my reply to Floo:

People often look upon Christians as not very happy people, having to comply with lots of rules and feeling guilty when they fail.

Yesterday was Gaudete Sunday, translated to mean Rejoice Sunday.  A time for all Christians to rejoice for the coming celebration of our Saviour's birth.  One of the readings at yesterday's Mass encourages Christians "to be happy at all times".  I know there are many Christians who seem to dwell on doom and gloom, but I, along with many others, find indescribable joy in knowing God's love and accepting Him as our Saviour.  So I certainly do not see my experience on this forum as a penance.  It is a true joy to be able to witness to my faith, and in doing so it brings me closer to God and enriches my faith in Him.

My family have just returned from a carol service on our village green which was well attended by many of our local community.  Our son played with the brass band accompanying the carols.  It was a wonderful, happy occasion.  I just wish that more people could share the joy of being a Christian, and my aim on this thread is to help remove some of the false obstacles which prevent people from finding God.  I see no valid reason not to believe.

When I was a Christian it was far from being a joy, just the opposite. I see no valid reason to believe as there is no substantiating evidence to support belief.

Btw please note I have changed my name to 'Littleroses', the one by which my late Father called me, even when I was an adult.  

[torridon]

So what do you think is the cause for me to deliberately roll out what you claim to be nonsense?  Am I not driven by my own conscious will? Or was it just an uncontrollable reaction to everything which has gone before?

Deliberately, accidentally, quickly, fortuitously, cunningly, spiritually, consciously, physically; none of these appeals to mechanism change the fundamental logic of the situation.  Everything that happens, either happens for a reason or it does not, and if there is no reason, then it is a random event.  This simple logic is inescapable.

[Stranger]

So what do you think is the cause for me to deliberately roll out what you claim to be nonsense?  Am I not driven by my own conscious will? Or was it just an uncontrollable reaction to everything which has gone before?

[prejudicial language removed]

Both.

[ippy]

Boy, wasn't 'Our Lord Dawkins' on high, right when he chose 'Delusion' within the title of his famous book, poor old A B?

ippy