Searching for GOD...

[ippy]

Perhaps you did not read my reply to Floo:

People often look upon Christians as not very happy people, having to comply with lots of rules and feeling guilty when they fail.

Yesterday was Gaudete Sunday, translated to mean Rejoice Sunday.  A time for all Christians to rejoice for the coming celebration of our Saviour's birth.  One of the readings at yesterday's Mass encourages Christians "to be happy at all times".  I know there are many Christians who seem to dwell on doom and gloom, but I, along with many others, find indescribable joy in knowing God's love and accepting Him as our Saviour.  So I certainly do not see my experience on this forum as a penance.  It is a true joy to be able to witness to my faith, and in doing so it brings me closer to God and enriches my faith in Him.

My family have just returned from a carol service on our village green which was well attended by many of our local community.  Our son played with the brass band accompanying the carols.  It was a wonderful, happy occasion.  I just wish that more people could share the joy of being a Christian, and my aim on this thread is to help remove some of the false obstacles which prevent people from finding God.  I see no valid reason not to believe.

Like I said Alan, sad.

Necessarily kind regards ippy

[Alan Burns]

Deliberately, accidentally, quickly, fortuitously, cunningly, spiritually, consciously, physically; none of these appeals to mechanism change the fundamental logic of the situation.  Everything that happens, either happens for a reason or it does not, and if there is no reason, then it is a random event.  This simple logic is inescapable.

And the reason is my own conscious will.  A deliberate act is not the same as a reaction.  The deliberate act must have a defining source, but a reaction is driven entirely by past events.  The materialist scenario can't define a source other than inevitable cause and effect reactions.  And I will continue to show my ability to be driven by my conscious will by witnessing to my freedom to do this.

[Stranger]

And the reason is my own conscious will.

What is the reason for your conscious will's decision?

A deliberate act is not the same as a reaction.

What act have you ever done that wasn't a reaction to something?

The deliberate act must have a defining source, but a reaction is driven entirely by past events.

What's the definition of a 'defining source' and how does it decide what to source?

The materialist scenario can't define a source other than inevitable cause and effect reactions.

And you have been totally unable to define how your non-materialist, god-magic, soul thingy does anything different.

And I will continue to show my ability to be driven by my conscious will by witnessing to my freedom to do this.

You mean you'll continue regurgitating the same meaningless phrases, empty assertions, and logical fallacies over and over and over again, without ever thinking about anything anybody says in response?

[Alan Burns]

What is the reason for your conscious will's decision?

What act have you ever done that wasn't a reaction to something?

What's the definition of a 'defining source' and how does it decide what to source?

And you have been totally unable to define how your non-materialist, god-magic, soul thingy does anything different.

You mean you'll continue regurgitating the same meaningless phrases, empty assertions, and logical fallacies over and over and over again, without ever thinking about anything anybody says in response?

I do not pretend to know how my conscious will works, I just know beyond any doubt that I am not entirely controlled by past events.  My conscious awareness can make the final choice based entirely upon what I consciously want to do at any moment in time.  And yes, I will continue to use this power to consciously repeat what you deem to be the same meaningless phrases, empty assertions, and logical fallacies over and over and over again, because no amount of convoluted arguments can ever take away my freedom to do this.

[Shaker]

... yes, I will continue to use this power to consciously repeat what you deem to be the same meaningless phrases, empty assertions, and logical fallacies over and over and over again

For another thousand pages, I'll be bound.

[Gordon]

And the reason is my own conscious will.

So what factors influence how this conscious will of yours acts?

A deliberate act is not the same as a reaction.

Yes it is.

The deliberate act must have a defining source

Which is where you start making stuff up.

but a reaction is driven entirely by past events.

So what?

The materialist scenario can't define a source other than inevitable cause and effect reactions.

Life is like that, Alan: there is no 'source'.

And I will continue to show my ability to be driven by my conscious will by witnessing to my freedom to do this.

Which is, ironically, your utterly predictable protective reaction whenever you, figuratively, decide to stick your fingers in your ears and start singing the 'la la la' song. All that is being 'witnessed' here, Alan, is your separation from reasoned thinking.   

[Gordon]

I do not pretend to know how my conscious will works, I just know beyond any doubt that I am not entirely controlled by past events.  My conscious awareness can make the final choice based entirely upon what I consciously want to do a any moment in time.  And yes, I will continue to use this power to consciously repeat what you deem to be the same meaningless phrases, empty assertions, and logical fallacies over and over and over again, because no amount of convoluted arguments can ever take away my freedom to do this.

You are free to hold whatever odd beliefs take your fancy, Alan: but when you try to proselytise these odd beliefs you can expect others to consider whether you've provided support for what you preach - and your chronic dependence on fallacious reasoning undoes you.

Perhaps you should consider posting about something else for a change.

[Stranger]

I do not pretend to know how my conscious will works, I just know beyond any doubt that I am not entirely controlled by past events.

How do you know?

My conscious awareness can make the final choice based entirely upon what I consciously want to do a any moment in time.

What determines what you consciously want to do at any moment in time? I've said all along that you can do what you consciously want - that isn't the point.

And yes, I will continue to use this power to consciously repeat what you deem to be the same meaningless phrases, empty assertions, and logical fallacies over and over and over again, because no amount of convoluted arguments can ever take away my freedom to do this.

I don't think anybody has suggested that your freedom to do so can be taken away. You are totally free to portray your faith as being based on empty assertion, logical fallacies, and the absence of thought, if that's what you want to do.

[Maeght]

So what factors influence how this conscious will of yours ?

Please think carefully about what you are being asked here Alan and please try to answer it.

[Alan Burns]

Which is where you start making stuff up.

You accuse me of making stuff up, but you deny that I can have a definite source for such a deliberate act.  So what precisely do you define as the cause of my "making stuff up"?

[Gordon]

You accuse me of making stuff up, but you deny that I can have a definite source for such a deliberate act.  So what precisely do you define as the cause of my "making stuff up"?

Your biology just doing what it does, Alan: in this case resulting in flawed reasoning on your part.

It is as simple as that!

[Alan Burns]

Your biology just doing what it does, Alan: in this case resulting in flawed reasoning on your part.

It is as simple as that!

In your scenario, Gordon, we are all just lumps of matter reacting to the pre determined electro chemical activity within our biological machines.  So what determines my electro chemical activity to be labelled as flawed?

[Alan Burns]

Please think carefully about what you are being asked here Alan and please try to answer it.

But the actions of thinking carefully and trying to answer are themselves acts of conscious will.  So I have the conscious willpower to choose whether on not to carry out these requests.

[Gordon]

In your scenario, Gordon, we are all just lumps of matter reacting to the pre determined electro chemical activity within our biological machines.  So what determines my electro chemical activity to be labelled as flawed?

The way your electro-chemical activity expresses itself of course, which in your case involves poor reasoning when it comes to religious superstitions and supernatural claims.

[Gordon]

But the actions of thinking carefully and trying to answer are themselves acts of conscious will.  So I have the conscious willpower to choose whether on not to carry out these requests.

You can call it 'conscious willpower' if you like, Alan, but it is really no more than just your biology functioning normally.

[Stranger]

You accuse me of making stuff up, but you deny that I can have a definite source for such a deliberate act.  So what precisely do you define as the cause of my "making stuff up"?

Where did you get your script? The more you post the more convinced I am that you haven't spent any time at all thinking about this and that you are just repeating the same words and phrases that you've learned somewhere.

What the hell is 'definite source' supposed to mean?

As for making stuff up (or deciding to follow a script) you're a human being, deciding to do things is in our nature. And no, deciding to do things doesn't need a magic, non-material, soul thingy - what it does need is a decision making process; something you keep running away from addressing whenever you talk about your magic, non-material, soul thingy...

[Alan Burns]

Where did you get your script? The more you post the more convinced I am that you haven't spent any time at all thinking about this and that you are just repeating the same words and phrases that you've learned somewhere.

What the hell is 'definite source' supposed to mean?

As for making stuff up (or deciding to follow a script) you're a human being, deciding to do things is in our nature. And no, deciding to do things doesn't need a magic, non-material, soul thingy - what it does need is a decision making process; something you keep running away from addressing whenever you talk about your magic, non-material, soul thingy...

but what drives the process?

[Maeght]

But the actions of thinking carefully and trying to answer are themselves acts of conscious will.  So I have the conscious willpower to choose whether on not to carry out these requests.

So no answer or understanding of what you are being asked. Again.

[Stranger]

but what drives the process?

Well, what's your answer? And no, "the conscious will of the human soul" is not an answer - the process has to be internal to that...

[Alan Burns]

Well, what's your answer? And no, "the conscious will of the human soul" is not an answer - the process has to be internal to that...

If the process is consciously controlled, it is not internal but driven by our conscious awareness.  We are not just consciously aware of what is going on - we are consciously driving the process.

[Stranger]

If the process is consciously controlled, it is not internal but driven by our conscious awareness.  We are not just consciously aware of what is going on - we are consciously driving the process.

You're just avoiding the point. In order to "drive the process" we need to decide what we want to do - and in order to decide that, there has to be a process inside us that results in decisions.

How do we know what we want to do? What process results in our conscious choices?

ETA:-

Your whole "argument" has been based on the notion that we are not "just" biological machines and that the (probably) deterministic mechanisms of the brain couldn't result in our experience of "free will". So, in the physical case, you are considering the internal workings of our minds.

Unless you can describe the internal workings of your proposed non-material soul, you are not making a fair comparison. You need to define how "free will" actually works in your proposal - otherwise, you're just making a trite claim that "it's magic, innit".

[Gordon]

If the process is consciously controlled, it is not internal but driven by our conscious awareness.  We are not just consciously aware of what is going on - we are consciously driving the process.

It is driven by how your biology works, Alan. A clue here is that people without functioning biology (that is dead people) no longer process anything either consciously or unconsciously.

Seems to me in your desperation to factor in 'God' you are ignoring the very obvious role of biology because, presumably, you don't like the consequence that your 'God' notion is rendered redundant- so your protective incredulity kicks in.

[Sebastian Toe]

I would have thought it was obvious that I was referring to the spiritual state which is not part of this material universe, but where our spiritual soul resides.  And it is not definable in the space time coordinates of our universe, but exists in what I believe to be the eternal state from which our universe was created.

So we have;
The physical universe in which our bodies reside.
The 'spiritual state' which is not part of our universe but is part of the 'eternal state' - in which our souls reside.
Our souls communicate with our brains ( somehow) and make decisions (somehow).

Is that correct - so far?

[floo]

It is driven by how your biology works, Alan. A clue here is that people without functioning biology (that is dead people) no longer process anything either consciously or unconsciously.

Seems to me in your desperation to factor in 'God' you are ignoring the very obvious role of biology because, presumably, you don't like the consequence that your 'God' notion is rendered redundant- so your protective incredulity kicks in.

Spot on.

[torridon]

but what drives the process?

Merely positing a 'soul', or 'conscious awareness' explains exactly nothing.  It is just a black box, a black box that conveniently excuses you from diagnosing how this mechanism of yours arrives at decisions.  You have been evading this for years now.  You have no explanation for the derivation of volition in a soul. On the other hand, understanding things in terms of information flow suffers from no such explanatory deficit - there are reasons for your current uppermost desire and those reasons are in the past; our volition derives from what has gone before.  This understanding works across not just humanity, not even just across all creatures with brains, it is entirely consistent with fundamental laws of nature and logic.  A 'soul' serves no explanatory purpose, indeed it obscures true understanding with its facile appeal.