Searching for GOD...

[Gordon]

God has made Himself known to me through Jesus Christ.  That is all I know.

How did God do this? Just reading tales about Jesus can't be enough, since if it were then anyone who read the Christian claims about Jesus would then 'know' God, and that isn't the case - so what was the event you reacted to?

Presumably you'd heard of God previously to thinking it had made itself known to you, so you had a head start on what people claimed about God - yes?

[Alan Burns]

How did God do this? Just reading tales about Jesus can't be enough, since if it were then anyone who read the Christian claims about Jesus would then 'know' God, and that isn't the case - so what was the event you reacted to?

Presumably you'd heard of God previously to thinking it had made itself known to you, so you had a head start on what people claimed about God - yes?

God makes Himself known to people in many different ways.  In my case it was a response to a challenge from a priest telling me that attending the "Life in the Spirit" seminars would change my life.  Before this challenge, I thought I knew all about the Catholic faith, but I did not know God.  Despite my convictions, I felt drawn to attend these seminars, and they did indeed change my life, because I discovered God's love.

[Sebastian Toe]

God makes Himself known to people in many different ways.  In my case it was a response to a challenge from a priest telling me that attending the "Life in the Spirit" seminars would change my life.  Before this challenge, I thought I knew all about the Catholic faith, but I did not know God.  Despite my convictions, I felt drawn to attend these seminars, and they did indeed change my life, because I discovered God's love.

Thank you for describing in your own words, the deterministic chain of events that led you there!

As I was saying, i.r.o.n.i.c!

[Gordon]

God makes Himself known to people in many different ways.  In my case it was a response to a challenge from a priest telling me that attending the "Life in the Spirit" seminars would change my life.  Before this challenge, I thought I knew all about the Catholic faith, but I did not know God.  Despite my convictions, I felt drawn to attend these seminars, and they did indeed change my life, because I discovered God's love.

So, and even in broad general terms, in the lead up to where you think you had a significant encounter with the divine we've got at the very least; a) your own prior and what sounds like long-term commitment to Catholicism, b) the influence of this priest (and his own background in Catholicism) and then c) the role of this seminar and all those involved with it.

Quite a lot of history here.

[torridon]

I did not say that I know what consciousness is.

I was just stating what I believe our consciousness does, which is to perceive information in our brain cells, and consciously interact with our brain to initiate acts of will.

So a soul has its own perceptual system, its own consciousness, its own will and it has to proceed by looking at my perceptual system etc to derive by reverse engineering what I am experiencing and thinking and wanting, and then sometimes overriding what I want.  If I look at a tree and a third party looks at my cortex, it won't see a tree there, it will just see grey matter and white matter.   If a soul can perceive my cortex, why does it not just perceive the tree directly ?   That would be far simpler, also it would bypass the limitations and inherent defects in my visual system.  What you suggest would be like looking at the electrical state of the CPU in your laptop to reconstruct the lines of Python that are being executed.

[torridon]

The neural cortex is still just a collection of atomic particles behaving in accordance with natural laws.  To try to speculate that this is all there is to conscious thought processing involves a very big assumption about what comprises thought, but you just assume that this is it without any understanding of the nature of our thoughts.

Well this is rich, labelling some gaps in our knowledge as speculation when your alternative scenario is pure unevidenced and often contradictory speculation from end to end.

[Stranger]

Of course I fully understand every comment on this thread.

Then why do your posts display no evidence that you've even read most of them? Why do you ignore the counterarguments that are put to you and just repeat the same things that have been dealt with countless times before?

You did it again with this answer (to #25086) - you simply edited out the points I made and totally ignored them.

Two posts after stating that you understood every comment, you trotted out this:-

Was it the uncontrollable reaction to past events?
Or was it my wilfully driven response to show what I believe to be true?

Which again requires the prejudicial language removing from your script (which has been pointed out multiple times) and totally ignores the point I made yet again in the part of my post you edited out and ignored: that the two options give not mutually exclusive - it can be both a "wilfully driven response" and "a reaction to past events".

If you are reading and understanding the comments made, why are you ignoring them instead of challenging them?

[Stranger]

But I have to say that I will never believe that every thought word and action I make is unavoidably pre determined by past events, because it does not comply with the reality I perceive.

What would you expect to perceive differently if your every thought word and action were predetermined?

[Yet another question you've repeatedly ignored in the past]

[torridon]

Of course I fully understand every comment on this thread.
But I have to say that I will never believe that every thought word and action I make is unavoidably pre determined by past events, because it does not comply with the reality I perceive.  I can only state what I sincerely believe to be true, and nothing I have read on this thread has made me doubt the truth of my own perceptions.

But we know now not to trust our perceptions completely; also we have learned that our intuitions are often wrong. Our direct experience of reality turns out to be no such thing, it is a contrivance wrought from precursor states of mind and it has no remit whatsoever to show us the 'truth' of what is out there.  For you to make the bald claim above suggests you have not read the thousands of posts on this thread illustrating exactly why we do have cause to doubt the truth of our personal perceptions of reality,

[floo]

But we know now not to trust our perceptions completely; also we have learned that our intuitions are often wrong. Our direct experience of reality turns out to be no such thing, it is a contrivance wrought from precursor states of mind and it has no remit whatsoever to show us the 'truth' of what is out there.  For you to make the bald claim above suggests you have not read the thousands of posts on this thread illustrating exactly why we do have cause to doubt the truth of our personal perceptions of reality,

How does AB explain why there are so many different perceptions relating to the topic of god?

[torridon]

How does AB explain why there are so many different perceptions relating to the topic of god?

He'll probably put that down the the 'Devil', whilst quietly sidestepping the issue of why god created the Devil anyway.

[Maeght]

Of course I fully understand every comment on this thread.

Based on your responses to points made and questions asked I doubt that.

[floo]

He'll probably put that down the the 'Devil', whilst quietly sidestepping the issue of why god created the Devil anyway.

Probably.

[ippy]

God makes Himself known to people in many different ways.  In my case it was a response to a challenge from a priest telling me that attending the "Life in the Spirit" seminars would change my life.  Before this challenge, I thought I knew all about the Catholic faith, but I did not know God.  Despite my convictions, I felt drawn to attend these seminars, and they did indeed change my life, because I discovered God's love.

Ooooh look at me, god's made himself known to me! A fashion item

Necessarily the kindest of regards to you Alan, ippy

[floo]

Ooooh look at me, god's made himself known to me! A fashion item

Necessarily the kindest of regards to you Alan, ippy

God a fashion item?

[Alan Burns]

Thank you for describing in your own words, the deterministic chain of events that led you there!

I made the conscious choice to attend the seminar.  It was my own choice.  I was sorely tempted not to go, because I did not want to leave my brand new silver TR7 soft top parked at night in a rough council estate in Middlesbrough.  And I was quite happy with my life as it was - I did not want to change it.  But I felt drawn to attend.  Looking back, I feel sure God was guiding me to attend, but I still had the freedom to say no.  I am eternally grateful that I said yes. (I also met my future wife at these seminars). 

[Alan Burns]

So a soul has its own perceptual system, its own consciousness, its own will and it has to proceed by looking at my perceptual system etc to derive by reverse engineering what I am experiencing and thinking and wanting, and then sometimes overriding what I want.  If I look at a tree and a third party looks at my cortex, it won't see a tree there, it will just see grey matter and white matter.   If a soul can perceive my cortex, why does it not just perceive the tree directly ?   That would be far simpler, also it would bypass the limitations and inherent defects in my visual system.  What you suggest would be like looking at the electrical state of the CPU in your laptop to reconstruct the lines of Python that are being executed.

There is nothing in the CPU to perceive what is going on inside it.  The only perception involved is within the human who perceives the executed results from the CPU.  But there must be something within you which can perceive what is going on in your cortex. 

[Alan Burns]

What would you expect to perceive differently if your every thought word and action were predetermined?

[Yet another question you've repeatedly ignored in the past]

Hard to say, because my perception would be relegated to the role of a helpless observer of pre determined events.

[Alan Burns]

But we know now not to trust our perceptions completely; also we have learned that our intuitions are often wrong. Our direct experience of reality turns out to be no such thing, it is a contrivance wrought from precursor states of mind and it has no remit whatsoever to show us the 'truth' of what is out there.  For you to make the bald claim above suggests you have not read the thousands of posts on this thread illustrating exactly why we do have cause to doubt the truth of our personal perceptions of reality,

But my perception of consciously driven control can be easily verified by the fact that my resulting actions are precisely what I consciously choose to do.

[Maeght]

I made the conscious choice to attend the seminar.  It was my own choice.  I was sorely tempted not to go, because I did not want to leave my brand new silver TR7 soft top parked at night in a rough council estate in Middlesbrough.  And I was quite happy with my life as it was - I did not want to change it.  But I felt drawn to attend.  Looking back, I feel sure God was guiding me to attend, but I still had the freedom to say no.  I am eternally grateful that I said yes. (I also met my future wife at these seminars). 

But was that conscious choice predetermined by previous events. That is ,the question Alan.

[Alan Burns]

But was that conscious choice predetermined by previous events. That is ,the question Alan.

As I have said several times - my conscious choice can be influenced by previous events, but it is not unavoidably dictated by them.

[Stranger]

Hard to say, because my perception would be relegated to the role of a helpless observer of pre determined events.

Yet more evidence that you haven't really thought about the problem and are not, as you claimed, reading and understanding the points that are being put to you.

If your mind is deterministic, then so is its response to its perception. The idea of a helpless perception unable to do anything but observe is just nonsense. It is definitely not consistent with having a deterministic mind.

What is being suggested is that your thoughts and responses are the result of the past (your whole nature and nurture, everything that has made you the person you are).

That's why I keep saying that you being able to do as you please is totally consistent with your thoughts and actions being predetermined by the past.

How about really paying attention to what is being said to you...?

[Stranger]

But my perception of consciously driven control can be easily verified by the fact that my resulting actions are precisely what I consciously choose to do.

Which is totally consistent with your conscious choices being predetermined by the past.   

It just wasn't true when you said you'd read and understood the comments made to you, was it?

[Shaker]

You chaps deserve some sort of virtual medal for fighting the good fight and still arguing this pointless nonsense. Or at any rate an extra-large drink of your choice and a bigger than usual slab of Christmas cake 

[ippy]

God a fashion item?

Quoting that 'God has made himself known to me', is a fashion item to various, in my opinion, poor deluded people, I've heard this saying being spouted from so many years back, the poor devils, 'the head shakingly poor devils', pick up on this kind of rubbish and somehow think it'll impress whoever it is that's unfortunate enough to have this bunch of twerps quoting such things at them.

Regards ippy