Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Why does this consciousness want one thing but not another, Alan? Simply suggesting that your consciousness wanting something does not answer that question. It seems to me that this is the crux of the matter. If you think that this consciousness/conscious awareness does not randomly want something then you must have some sort of explanation of how it arrives at this process of 'wanting'. What is it?

It is derived from the spiritual power of the human soul to make a conscious choice, rather than a deterministically driven reaction.  Determinism and choice are incompatible.  Do you deny your ability to choose?  If so you are in denial of an amazing human attribute.

[Stranger]

I say and write what I want to - it is as simple as that.

That's just avoiding the question of why you want to write and say what your do. That is what people are saying is either deterministic or has some random element.

When are you going to have the courage to think about this:-

If ALL the reasons why you made a choice (all your nature and nurture; all of the person you are, applied to the situation at hand, at one exact point in time) could only have led to one choice, then the choice was deterministic (predetermined by the past). If not; if ALL the reasons could have resulted in a range of choices, then there cannot have been any reason at all for your choice of just one of them - and something that happens for no reason is random.

Trying to fit this ability into a physically deterministic world is where the complications come in, because freedom to choose and physical determinism are not compatible.

What, in your bizarre world, do you imagine is the difference between "physically deterministic" and "deterministic" is?

[Stranger]

Determinism and choice are incompatible.

Drivel.

[Alan Burns]

That's just avoiding the question of why you want to write and say what your do. That is what people are saying is either deterministic or has some random element.

When are you going to have the courage to think about this:-

If ALL the reasons why you made a choice (all your nature and nurture; all of the person you are, applied to the situation at hand, at one exact point in time) could only have led to one choice, then the choice was deterministic (predetermined by the past). If not; if ALL the reasons could have resulted in a range of choices, then there cannot have been any reason at all for your choice of just one of them - and something that happens for no reason is random.

What, in your bizarre world, do you imagine is the difference between "physically deterministic" and "deterministic" is?

Physically determined - controlled by nature alone
Spiritually determined - controlled by you or me (our souls)

[Stranger]

Physically determined - controlled by nature alone
Spiritually determined - controlled by you or me (our souls)

Neither of which has anything to do with determinism. Determinism (yet again) is the idea that the all the reasons why something happened could only have resulted in that one outcome.

So, what is the difference between "physically deterministic" and "deterministic"?

[Stranger]

...

What, in your bizarre world, do you imagine is the difference between "physically deterministic" and "deterministic" is?

Physically determined - controlled by nature alone
Spiritually determined - controlled by you or me (our souls)

This definitely gives the lie to your claim that you have been reading and understanding the points put to you. Despite the fact it's been explained to you multiple times, you don't actually know what deterministic means.

[Alan Burns]

Neither of which has anything to do with determinism. Determinism (yet again) is the idea that the all the reasons why something happened could only have resulted in that one outcome.

So, what is the difference between "physically deterministic" and "deterministic"?

I am just pointing out that the source of a consciously driven choice can't be derived from a physically deterministic scenario, because it would not be a choice - just a reaction.  Our freedom to choose can't be derived from a physically driven source.  I have the freedom to type the words I consciously choose to type.  So have you.

[Alan Burns]

Physically determined - controlled by nature alone
Spiritually determined - controlled by you or me (our souls)


This definitely gives the lie to your claim that you have been reading and understanding the points put to you. Despite the fact it's been explained to you multiple times, you don't actually know what deterministic means.

A conscious choice is determined by the will of your human soul.  The problem lies in accepting the power of your human soul to do this.

[Stranger]

Neither of which has anything to do with determinism. Determinism (yet again) is the idea that the all the reasons why something happened could only have resulted in that one outcome.

So, what is the difference between "physically deterministic" and "deterministic"?

I am just pointing out that the source of a consciously driven choice can't be derived from a physically deterministic scenario, because it would not be a choice - just a reaction.  Our freedom to choose can't be derived from a physically driven source.  I have the freedom to type the words I consciously choose to type.  So have you.

Great, so you won't say what you mean by "physically deterministic", you don't seem to know what determinism actually means, you have totally ignored everything said to you and gone back to your mindless script...

 

Do you want to give the impression that your faith requires mindless repetition and no thought?

[Stranger]

A conscious choice is determined by the will of your human soul.

Yes, yes, we all know that's what you think and it's still just avoiding the point. You still haven't addressed the issue of determinism and its only alternative: randomness.

Until you stop mindlessly repeating your script and actually concentrate on what people are saying to you, you will never convince anybody.

The problem lies in accepting the power of your human soul to do this.

Why should we accept self-contradictory nonsense that you can't explain?

[Gordon]

A conscious choice is determined by the will of your human soul.  The problem lies in accepting the power of your human soul to do this.

The odd thing is that you disparagingly comment along the lines of determinism implying that humans would be 'biological robots' and yet your contribution here is exactly that: you repeat your fallacious mantra just like a biological robot who, in order to preserve his religious position, has evidently given up on reason and logic entirely.
 

[Maeght]

I say and write what I want to - it is as simple as that.  Trying to fit this ability into a physically deterministic world is where the complications come in, because freedom to choose and physical determinism are not compatible.

So you can't answer or even understand the point it seems.

[Enki]

It is derived from the spiritual power of the human soul to make a conscious choice, rather than a deterministically driven reaction.  Determinism and choice are incompatible.  Do you deny your ability to choose?  If so you are in denial of an amazing human attribute.

You won't (I suspect you are not able to) actually answer the question. Barring a randomness element,  the ability to choose has to be ultimately dependent on something. If you discount the ideas of cause and effect, you have to put something else in its place. This you seem utterly unable to do. Simply speculating on the presence of a human soul does not answer the question of how. Sadly you do not seem to be able to grasp this point or you are just not willing to engage with it. Yet you seem to think that by avoiding it, we should somehow take on board any of your fanciful ideas. Sorry, Alan, This just won't do.  Incidentally what you class as a human attribute, I witness in many other animals also.

[Alan Burns]

You won't (I suspect you are not able to) actually answer the question. Barring a randomness element,  the ability to choose has to be ultimately dependent on something.

Yes - the conscious will of the human soul

[ippy]

The odd thing is that you disparagingly comment along the lines of determinism implying that humans would be 'biological robots' and yet your contribution here is exactly that: you repeat your fallacious mantra just like a biological robot who, in order to preserve his religious position, has evidently given up on reason and logic entirely.

This reminds me of some of those top drawer scientists, that in spite of their education still go for the creationist five thousand year old earth etc, I'll say that For A B this condition of his isn't unheard of it is so similar to these creationist scientists.

It makes most reasonable people walk off shaking their heads with disbelief when encountering people with such their vehement denials of reality, even against versions of reality that are underlined with as near as is possible cast iron evidential proof.

I think it's all the proof needed to demonstrate the power indoctrination has over certain individuals like A B, where it destroys their ability to reason and reason is overtaken by their indoctrination every time.

Regards ippy

[Alan Burns]

I am just pointing out that the source of a consciously driven choice can't be derived from a physically deterministic scenario, because it would not be a choice - just a reaction.  Our freedom to choose can't be derived from a physically driven source.  I have the freedom to type the words I consciously choose to type.  So have you.


Great, so you won't say what you mean by "physically deterministic", you don't seem to know what determinism actually means, you have totally ignored everything said to you and gone back to your mindless script...

 

Do you want to give the impression that your faith requires mindless repetition and no thought?

What more do I need to explain - physically determined events are not a choice - they are just an unavoidable reaction to other physically determined events.

You have the ability to consciously choose - ..........

[Stranger]

What more do I need to explain...

Why not go back and read what has been said - because you obviously haven't bothered.

Just for starters:

• How does a soul make a choice?
• How does it escape the logic that everything must be deterministic or random?
• What on earth you think "physically deterministic" means that is different from "deterministic". (You'll need to read back for an explanation of "deterministic", because you obviously don't understand the term.)
• Why you think mindlessly repeating a script, while totally ignoring the points put to you, is going to achieve anything.

...physically determined events are not a choice - they are just an unavoidable reaction to other physically determined events.

This is your own personal definition of the word 'choice', I assume (in much the same way as you redefined 'control')?

You have the ability to consciously choose - ..........

I know. Why do you keep repeating this when it isn't the point?

[Stranger]

Yes - the conscious will of the human soul

How many times do you need it pointing out that this isn't an answer?

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that human souls exist, they still have to arrive at their choices somehow. There must be a decision making process going on in your magical, non-physical realm.

It is the nature of that process that is the point - you can't just pretend it doesn't exist or is not subject to logic. People (souls, if you want) make choices for reasons - which is where determinism (or some degree of randomness) comes in.

[Enki]

Yes - the conscious will of the human soul

Such a trite response!
How on earth(or heaven) does that answer the question 'How', which is what I asked? I can only think that you are either deliberately being obtuse or you are unable to respond intelligently to questions asked. I am not trying to be insulting, Alan, These are the only two alternatives that I can come up with.

[Maeght]

What more do I need to explain - physically determined events are not a choice - they are just an unavoidable reaction to other physically determined events.

You have the ability to consciously choose - ..........

You haven't answered the question being asked. Again.

[Sebastian Toe]

You do not seem to grasp the fact that the conscious soul is not governed by the same inevitable cause and effect laws apparent in physical determinism, which is why I keep making the distinction.

Do enlighten me.
What laws do govern it then?

[Alan Burns]

How many times do you need it pointing out that this isn't an answer?

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that human souls exist, they still have to arrive at their choices somehow. There must be a decision making process going on in your magical, non-physical realm.

It is the nature of that process that is the point - you can't just pretend it doesn't exist or is not subject to logic. People (souls, if you want) make choices for reasons - which is where determinism (or some degree of randomness) comes in.

You are assuming that a spiritually determined event is constricted to the same rules of cause and effect as physically determined events.  Can you not comprehend the ability of your conscious soul to initiate an event from will?

[Alan Burns]

Do enlighten me.
What laws do govern it then?

God knows (literally!).
I just know that they must emanate from outside the physical rules of cause and effect.

[Gordon]

God knows (literally!).
I just know that they must emanate from outside the physical rules of cause and effect.

Could you be wrong?

[Sebastian Toe]

God knows (literally!).
I just know that they must emanate from outside the physical rules of cause and effect.

..you are speculating again aren't you!