Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3872089 times)

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25300 on: December 27, 2017, 03:47:25 PM »
It makes all the difference in what defines the ultimate source of our determinism.

You seem hooked on the term 'define' but then you fail to define this God/soul thing in unequivocal terms: so aside from your trademark incredulity this 'defining the ultimate source' nonsense is just more reification. 'Define' seems like code for 'I need there to be a god'.

Quote
It differentiates nature's puppets from God's chosen race to whom He has made Himself known and offered the gift of eternal salvation.

Theobabble (again).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 04:23:16 PM by Gordon »

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25301 on: December 27, 2017, 04:28:17 PM »
Conscious perception is achieved by perceiving what is being processed.  Your confusion about the infinite regress is due to you trying to understand it in material terms, but there is nothing in material entities which can define perception - all these entities can do is react to information.  You need an entity of perception to perceive these reactions - the reactions do not perceive themselves.

I noticed this from earlier, and you seem to repeat it a lot, that perception is separate from various mental processes.   As you say, 'the reactions do not perceive themselves'.

I'm curious what you base this on, as with the discovery of mirror neurons, it seems possible that some animals are able to recognize when another animal is doing an action which is similar to its own.   Whether or not this might lead to a 'theory of mind', I don't know.

Now, the full understanding of this is some way off, but it suggests that the brain is able to be self-reflexive, that is, it can construct an image of its 'owner' and his/her role in actions, as well as an image of others.    In other words, I can experience myself writing this.   

I suggest that the way is open to a full description in neuroscience of self-images, or if you like, self-perception.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25302 on: December 27, 2017, 07:54:34 PM »
and you claiming to be one of God's puppets driven by spiritual deterministic reactions to previous chains of spiritual cause and effect.  Not a whole lot of difference at the end of the day.
God did not make us his puppets or nature's puppets.  He shared His amazing gift of free will in order to make us all unique individuals with our own will.  He gives us the freedom for us all to choose our own destiny
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25303 on: December 27, 2017, 08:57:58 PM »
God did not make us his puppets or nature's puppets.  He shared His amazing gift of free will in order to make us all unique individuals with our own will.  He gives us the freedom for us all to choose our own destiny
tell that to my severely disabled nephew and his parents who have gone trough hell for the last 22 years .

Ill stop there , you're not worth it Alan Burns

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25304 on: December 27, 2017, 09:21:22 PM »
God did not make us his puppets or nature's puppets.  He shared His amazing gift of free will in order to make us all unique individuals with our own will.  He gives us the freedom for us all to choose our own destiny
Well he certainly gave you the gift of appearing like his puppet
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25305 on: December 28, 2017, 06:05:09 AM »
How would we be free in such a scenario?  The external influence would stoll need a process to make its choices, regardless of whether  what it is is relevant to us, so is this rzndom, predetermined or what?

Your scenario seems very much like the model of the sub conscious and conscious elements of the brain's processes, interacting yet unaware of that. But is that process free or predetermined by previous events or what? That os the questin.

Freedom is a relative term. What absolute freedom even means we probably cannot know.

A robot is 'free' if it becomes like a human.  That is the only freedom that is relevant to the robot. An employee is free if he becomes the boss. The fact that he would have another boss higher up is not relevant at that point.

Similarly, we humans can be free only to the extent that we become that which controls us.  What would control us subsequently is irrelevant at this point.

Freedom is always connected to something. Freedom from what? All the things that limit us and control us are the things that we seek freedom from.

People believe that there is a level at which there is complete and absolute freedom. The ultimate boss! That is what we call God. So ultimate freedom lies in becoming one with that God. What that means in terms of the nitty gritty I have no idea.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 06:25:18 AM by Sriram »

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25306 on: December 28, 2017, 08:15:01 AM »
God did not make us his puppets or nature's puppets.  He shared His amazing gift of free will in order to make us all unique individuals with our own will.  He gives us the freedom for us all to choose our own destiny

That remark would be amusing if it wasn't so sick! >:(

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25307 on: December 28, 2017, 08:28:42 AM »
God did not make us his puppets or nature's puppets.  He shared His amazing gift of free will in order to make us all unique individuals with our own will.  He gives us the freedom for us all to choose our own destiny

all sounds nice and fluffy, but from my perspective, given you haven't been able to substantiate any of the components of this alternate reality of yours, this looks like fantasy born of an unwillingness to engage with our actual reality; escapism worked up.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25308 on: December 28, 2017, 09:49:46 AM »
all sounds nice and fluffy, but from my perspective, given you haven't been able to substantiate any of the components of this alternate reality of yours, this looks like fantasy born of an unwillingness to engage with our actual reality; escapism worked up.
The reality is that I am demonstrably in control of my thoughts, words and actions - not nature.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25309 on: December 28, 2017, 10:01:19 AM »
The reality is that I am demonstrably in control of my thoughts, words and actions - not nature.

You haven't demonstrated that you are free of nature in any meaningful sense.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25310 on: December 28, 2017, 10:15:28 AM »
The reality is that I am demonstrably in control of my thoughts, words and actions - not nature.
..a nice example of nature controlling your thoughts, not a 'soul".
Thanks.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25311 on: December 28, 2017, 10:20:36 AM »
We are part of nature - why deny it?  I breathe air, I eat food, I get rid of waste products, alcohol makes me feel like a fool, I like gardening, my body is starting to creak, blah blah blah.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25312 on: December 28, 2017, 10:59:15 AM »
We are part of nature - why deny it?  I breathe air, I eat food, I get rid of waste products, alcohol makes me feel like a fool, I like gardening, my body is starting to creak, blah blah blah.
I can wilfully interact with nature, I can consciously manipulate nature, I can perceive nature, I can see how nature works, but nature does not control me.  I am in control.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25313 on: December 28, 2017, 11:04:17 AM »
I can wilfully interact with nature, I can consciously manipulate nature, I can perceive nature, I can see how nature works, but nature does not control me.  I am in control.

all of which implies a separation from Nature.  That's not valid, there is no 'them and us'; we are nature

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25314 on: December 28, 2017, 11:06:11 AM »
Walter and Litle Roses

Well said.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25315 on: December 28, 2017, 11:14:51 AM »
tell that to my severely disabled nephew and his parents who have gone trough hell for the last 22 years .

Disabilities do not separate us from God, as anyone who has experienced a Lourdes pilgrimage can testify.  I know of many severely disabled people who's faith has brought me and many others closer to God. 
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25316 on: December 28, 2017, 11:28:02 AM »
I can wilfully interact with nature, I can consciously manipulate nature, I can perceive nature, I can see how nature works, but nature does not control me.  I am in control.
Try saying that after staying underwater for 20 minutes without artificial breathing aids.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25317 on: December 28, 2017, 11:28:09 AM »
Disabilities do not separate us from God, as anyone who has experienced a Lourdes pilgrimage can testify.  I know of many severely disabled people who's faith has brought me and many others closer to God.

Lourdes is a SCAM, which preys on the gullible, imo.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25318 on: December 28, 2017, 12:30:59 PM »
Disabilities do not separate us from God, as anyone who has experienced a Lourdes pilgrimage can testify.  I know of many severely disabled people who's faith has brought me and many others closer to God.
you and your god disgust me . >:(

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25319 on: December 28, 2017, 12:36:59 PM »
you and your god disgust me . >:(

If a god does exist it might be nothing like AB's view of it, and could be just as disgusted by AB's concept of it as some of us are.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25320 on: December 28, 2017, 02:59:09 PM »
I can wilfully interact with nature, I can consciously manipulate nature, I can perceive nature, I can see how nature works, but nature does not control me.  I am in control.

Said the biological robot.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25321 on: December 28, 2017, 03:00:32 PM »
Try saying that after staying underwater for 20 minutes without artificial breathing aids.
And if I did try to do this, it would be through the power of my free will.  If nature was in control, the concept of deliberately staying under water would not be possible because I would have no will of my own.  As I said, nature does not control me - I am in control.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25322 on: December 28, 2017, 03:06:09 PM »
And if I did try to do this, it would be through the power of my free will.  If nature was in control, the concept of deliberately staying under water would not be possible because I would have no will of my own.  As I said, nature does not control me - I am in control.
Nature is in control.
Nature decrees that you cannot hold your breath for 20 minutes no matter how much will you have, free or otherwise.
Is Nature wrong here?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25323 on: December 28, 2017, 03:48:31 PM »
I can wilfully interact with nature, I can consciously manipulate nature, I can perceive nature, I can see how nature works, but nature does not control me.  I am in control.

Probably one of the most frightening and horrifying of human sentiments, which has led to the trashing of the planet, extinctions of animals and plants on a huge scale, global warming, pollution in the air and the oceans, and so on.    We are in control - what a joke, and what mass hubris.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25324 on: December 28, 2017, 05:22:11 PM »
And if I did try to do this, it would be through the power of my free will.  If nature was in control, the concept of deliberately staying under water would not be possible because I would have no will of my own.  As I said, nature does not control me - I am in control.

I'm not that sure that even counselling would do any good in your case Alan.

You surly have demonstrated some very good reasons for keeping young children away from yourself and anyone like you that shares your demonstrably horrible, offensive views.

Necessarily kind regards to you Alan, in spite of your thoughtless, disgusting point of view.