Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3890527 times)

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25350 on: December 29, 2017, 01:01:02 PM »
Of course they have souls, otherwise they would not have the freedom to do research.

All I am pointing out is that their investigation methods will never detect the presence of a non material soul.

So what makes you think it exists?

You are just making it up and deluding yourself, and ignoring all the facts.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25351 on: December 29, 2017, 01:09:24 PM »
Of course they have souls, otherwise they would not have the freedom to do research.

All I am pointing out is that their investigation methods will never detect the presence of a non material soul.

What methods do you have then to validate your claim that this 'soul' thing exists? 

And while you are at that could you also provide a logically coherent defunition of 'soul'?

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25352 on: December 29, 2017, 01:16:09 PM »
So what makes you think it exists?
The fact that I can think.
Quote
You are just making it up and deluding yourself, and ignoring all the facts.
I could not do any of these without the freedom of will from my God given soul.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25353 on: December 29, 2017, 01:19:06 PM »
Of course they have souls, otherwise they would not have the freedom to do research.

All I am pointing out is that their investigation methods will never detect the presence of a non material soul.
Why not?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25354 on: December 29, 2017, 01:21:00 PM »
The fact that I can think.
The fact that I can think leads me to conclude thst a soul is an unnecessary made up speculation.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25355 on: December 29, 2017, 01:21:47 PM »
What methods do you have then to validate your claim that this 'soul' thing exists? 
All I have is the awareness of my own existence, which can't be explained in material terms because material entities can't achieve self awareness.
Quote
And while you are at that could you also provide a logically coherent definition of 'soul'?
It consciously perceives and interacts with the content of my physical brain.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25356 on: December 29, 2017, 01:23:43 PM »
All I have is the awareness of my own existence, which can't be explained in material terms because material entities can't achieve self awareness.

...he speculated.....
It consciously perceives and interacts with the content of my physical brain.

..he speculated.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25357 on: December 29, 2017, 01:45:35 PM »
All I have is the awareness of my own existence, which can't be explained in material terms because material entities can't achieve self awareness.

Say's who?

I'm material and it feels to me that I'm self-aware.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25358 on: December 29, 2017, 01:49:53 PM »
All I have is the awareness of my own existence, which can't be explained in material terms because material entities can't achieve self awareness.It consciously perceives and interacts with the content of my physical brain.

That's not even a definition for 'soul' never mind a logically coherent one. And then you provide no method at all. I know you claimed to absolutely understand all the posts addressed to you which is a bizarre and monunentally arrogant claim, but the above seems to show you don't even understand the issues with your own posts.

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25359 on: December 29, 2017, 02:01:08 PM »
The fact that I can think.I could not do any of these without the freedom of will from my God given soul.

You do all of this without a soul.

You just ignore facts and assert things without evidence, and you ignore logic.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25360 on: December 29, 2017, 02:13:33 PM »
The fact that I can think.I could not do any of these without the freedom of will from my God given soul.

In your opinion, but you cannot provide any evidence to support it.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25361 on: December 29, 2017, 02:21:40 PM »
You do all of this without a soul.

You just ignore facts and assert things without evidence, and you ignore logic.
Without a soul, I would be limited to what can only result from deterministic material reactions, and this would inevitably rule out my ability to deliberately ignore anything or assert anything.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25362 on: December 29, 2017, 02:23:39 PM »
Without a soul, I would be limited to what can only result from deterministic material reactions, and this would inevitably rule out my ability to deliberately ignore anything or assert anything.

In your opinion.

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25363 on: December 29, 2017, 02:25:17 PM »
That's not even a definition for 'soul' never mind a logically coherent one. And then you provide no method at all. I know you claimed to absolutely understand all the posts addressed to you which is a bizarre and monunentally arrogant claim, but the above seems to show you don't even understand the issues with your own posts.
or the issues going on in his own head ! :(

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25364 on: December 29, 2017, 02:31:35 PM »
Without a soul, I would be limited to what can only result from deterministic material reactions, and this would inevitably rule out my ability to deliberately ignore anything or assert anything.

You need a brain to do those things not a soul.

We know brains exist.

By default, souls do not exist.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25365 on: December 29, 2017, 02:40:15 PM »
You need a brain to do those things not a soul.

We know brains exist.

By default, souls do not exist.

That last sentence is incoherent. A thing either exists or doesn't. The default would be that there is no reason to think something exists if there is no reason to do so.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25366 on: December 29, 2017, 02:51:35 PM »
Which is the inevitable conclusion if you rely entirely upon what can be discovered by our physical senses and man made instruments, whose investigations will be limited to perceiving how physical entities react to events.  So it will be no surprise that any conclusions from such investigations will be based entirely upon the deterministic behaviour of physical materials.

But as I said - is contradicts my most fundamental perception of reality, and no amount of human attempts at physical explanations can take away the reality of my power to consciously choose through the power of my God given soul.

I'd put money on it that you didn't even read it  ;) The paper draws on findings from neuropsychology, not materials science, and it makes the point that I've often made to you, that our conscious awareness is not the driver of choice and action, but rather it is a retrospective phenomenon, an 'end product', to use their terms, of a chain of non-conscious processing which is where real executive control occurs.  To claim that executive power resides in conscious awareness is akin to claiming that a rainbow caused the thunderstorm that preceded it, to borrow their analogy. Of course it doesn't feel that way, to us, but there again, 'how it feels' is a construction, a fabrication, of precursor states of mind, so how could we possibly know. 

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25367 on: December 29, 2017, 03:01:55 PM »
Without a soul, I would be limited to what can only result from deterministic material reactions, and this would inevitably rule out my ability to deliberately ignore anything or assert anything.

When a wolf tries to bring down a bison, it isn't by accident.  It is a deliberate action on the part of the wolf.  How come a wolf can do 'deliberate' without the need for a soul ?  And no, it's not merely instinctive, programmed behaviour, a wolf cub has to learn how to do these things from its parents.

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25368 on: December 29, 2017, 03:16:41 PM »
That last sentence is incoherent. A thing either exists or doesn't. The default would be that there is no reason to think something exists if there is no reason to do so.

Yes that's what I should have said.

There is no reason to believe a soul exists at the moment
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25369 on: December 29, 2017, 03:21:02 PM »
Yes that's what I should have said.

There is no reason to believe a soul exists at the moment
And given Alan's lack of a logically coherent definition, it isn't even a sensible statement.

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25370 on: December 29, 2017, 03:40:28 PM »
And given Alan's lack of a logically coherent definition, it isn't even a sensible statement.
That is probably why this topic has gone on for so long.  I suspect that if it had been headed 'Searching for soul' it would have been just as long.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25371 on: December 29, 2017, 04:03:52 PM »
The fact that I can think.I could not do any of these without the freedom of will from my God given soul.

I looked into the mirror and though it's amazing how good looking I am for a seventy five year old man.

I know this is true because it's the fact that I can think and I couldn't do do any of these without the freedom of will given to me by this bloke wearing an A board banging a drum, his raincoat tied up with a length of string and what looked like silver paper under his hat.

I swear this is the truth and necessarily kind regards to you Alan, ippy.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25372 on: December 29, 2017, 07:14:18 PM »
When a wolf tries to bring down a bison, it isn't by accident.  It is a deliberate action on the part of the wolf.  How come a wolf can do 'deliberate' without the need for a soul ?  And no, it's not merely instinctive, programmed behaviour, a wolf cub has to learn how to do these things from its parents.
Wolves run on predictable instinct and learnt experience driven by the need to survive.
The actions I was accused of were ignoring and assertion, which can't be classed as instinctive so must be labelled as deliberate actions.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25373 on: December 29, 2017, 07:28:47 PM »
Wolves run on predictable instinct and learnt experience driven by the need to survive.
The actions I was accused of were ignoring and assertion, which can't be classed as instinctive so must be labelled as deliberate actions.
When my dogs ignore my command in favour of playing some more, then that must be deliberate actions on their part.
So - dogs must have souls.

Where will you shift the goalposts to now I wonder?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25374 on: December 29, 2017, 08:07:19 PM »
Wolves run on predictable instinct and learnt experience driven by the need to survive.
The actions I was accused of were ignoring and assertion, which can't be classed as instinctive so must be labelled as deliberate actions.

Learned behaviours aren't instinctive either;  that's why they are called learned behaviours rather than instinctive behaviours.

There's nothing magic about 'ignoring' either.  A chimp will frequently signal to another to come and groom; sometimes the other chimp will come along, but if not in the mood, she sometimes ignores the request.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 08:20:05 PM by torridon »