Searching for GOD...

[BeRational]

You ask so many questions about the nature of the soul and how it does all the things that we attribute to it. But you readily accept something called Dark energy that pushes galaxies apart without having any idea about what it is or how it does what  does. I am not questioning the Dark Energy hypothesis. I am only pointing out your double standards.

No one claims to know everything about the soul or the spirit. In fact everyone admits their ignorance about its nature.  But that does not make the soul hypothesis wrong....anymore than your ignorance of the nature of Dark energy makes that hypothesis wrong.   

About consciousness...you are wrong in treating only our conscious awareness as Consciousness.   We have discussed this many times and many Science articles have also been linked by me that point to the Unconscious mind being largely in control and the Conscious mind being just a front office as it were....with the Unconscious mind being the actual work shop.

There is no double standard.

I do not just accept that Dark Energy is pushing against gravity.

There is the observed fact that galaxies instead of slowing due to gravity, are moving away ever faster.

Dark Energy is just a place holder name. It could equally have been called Unknown Cause 1.

It then becomes the START of trying to understand what is happening and why. Is is NOT the answer.

Soul is nothing like this. It is proposed as an answer, and end of investigation, when in fact you understand nothing.

[wigginhall]

Another point about Cotard syndrome is that patients have sometimes suffered brain damage from accidents, pointing to the brain's function in organizing notions of self and agency.   But identity problems also happen with strokes - I know people who got up one morning and couldn't remember who they were.   If this happens to someone in your family, call an ambulance or go to A and E.

Also torridon's point that we are not born with self and agency, but develop it as the brain develops, and also via social interactions. 

I think many kinds of brain damage can provide illumination about how the self develops, and how it can be damaged, dementia being another example.

Also Be Rational summarized the difference between soul and Dark Energy very well.   The latter marks the beginning of investigation in physics, cosmology, and probably mathematics, the former, the end of investigation, as far as I can see, since it's supernatural.   

[Alan Burns]

So
Who or what is the powerless, helpless, unwilling observer?
What is it that is forced to watch things unfold?

And why is it powerless?

These were questions I put to Torridon quoting phrases from his post.
Of course the soul is not powerless.  Otherwise I would not be writing this post.

[Alan Burns]

There is no double standard.

I do not just accept that Dark Energy is pushing against gravity.

There is the observed fact that galaxies instead of slowing due to gravity, are moving away ever faster.

Dark Energy is just a place holder name. It could equally have been called Unknown Cause 1.

It then becomes the START of trying to understand what is happening and why. Is is NOT the answer.

Soul is nothing like this. It is proposed as an answer, and end of investigation, when in fact you understand nothing.

I would think that dark energy is confusing the matter, because I presume it is part of this deterministically controlled material universe.  The spiritual power of the human soul is not subject to physical determinism because it enables us to make consciously defined choices.

[Gordon]

I would think that dark energy is confusing the matter, because I presume it is part of this deterministically controlled material universe.  The spiritual power of the human soul is not subject to physical determinism because it enables us to make consciously defined choices.

'Spiritual power' seems like an oxymoron unless you have a methodology suited to detecting it, which you don't: not that you ever will of course, since as presented by you this 'spiritual power' is no more that a fanciful idea that appeals to your personal need for there to be 'God'.

[Sebastian Toe]

Of course the soul is not powerless.  Otherwise I would not be writing this post.

So if we are confronted with a person for whom 'reality' is that they absolutely believe that they are a zombie.

Who or what is conveying that to us?
The person's soul or their deterministic brain?

[torridon]

You ask so many questions about the nature of the soul and how it does all the things that we attribute to it. But you readily accept something called Dark energy that pushes galaxies apart without having any idea about what it is or how it does what  does. I am not questioning the Dark Energy hypothesis. I am only pointing out your double standards.

You are not comparing like with like. 'Dark Energy' is evidence for something.  But there's no evidence for 'souls'.  See BR reply #25475.  'Souls' is a spurious explanation for things that we can explain through the languages of psychology, neuroscience and information theory.

[torridon]

About consciousness...you are wrong in treating only our conscious awareness as Consciousness.   We have discussed this many times and many Science articles have also been linked by me that point to the Unconscious mind being largely in control and the Conscious mind being just a front office as it were....with the Unconscious mind being the actual work shop.

I've never disputed that subconscious mind is the real driver of action.  Check out my posting history, I've spent two years trying to convince Alan of this, although I suspect he still doesn't believe me 

That conscious mind is in 'control' is like claiming that a rainbow causes the storm that preceded it, to quote the research featured on Sane's thread 'the non conscious nature of being', or like claiming that the whistle of a steam engine drives the train, to recall the famous Huxley analogy.

[Alan Burns]

I've never disputed that subconscious mind is the real driver of action.  Check out my posting history, I've spent two years trying to convince Alan of this, although I suspect he still doesn't believe me 

That conscious mind is in 'control' is like claiming that a rainbow causes the storm that preceded it, to quote the research featured on Sane's thread 'the non conscious nature of being', or like claiming that the whistle of a steam engine drives the train, to recall the famous Huxley analogy.

But you do not seem to recognise that consequences are evidence of control.  A rain bow is an easily identified consequence of a storm.  The whistle can only be a consequence of letting off excess steam.  A person overtaking the car in front is a consequence of a consciously controlled decision to overtake. 

[ippy]

On percentage indoctrination has quite a high sucess rate, obviously.

ippy

[Sebastian Toe]

But you do not seem to recognise that consequences are evidence of control.  A rain bow is an easily identified consequence of a storm.  The whistle can only be a consequence of letting off excess steam.  A person overtaking the car in front is a consequence of a consciously controlled decision to overtake.

A consciously controlled decision to overtake is a consequence of the illusion of self conttol, emminating from the subconscious.

[Sriram]

You are not comparing like with like. 'Dark Energy' is evidence for something.  But there's no evidence for 'souls'.  See BR reply #25475.  'Souls' is a spurious explanation for things that we can explain through the languages of psychology, neuroscience and information theory.

I have taken the example of a new born infant many times (just as you also seem to have).  An infant is not self aware, has no identity and no memory. Yet he/she is a conscious human being.  The source of that consciousness is what is traditionally called the soul or atma.

The soul explains the presence of an individual around whom all the awareness, memory and identity is built later on. Without the soul there is no subject around whom the personality can be built.   

Just as you don't have any idea what Dark Energy is but you need it as a hypothesis to explain certain phenomenon...similarly we have no idea what the soul is except that it explains what the subject is who forms the substratum of the personality.

[Sriram]

I've never disputed that subconscious mind is the real driver of action.  Check out my posting history, I've spent two years trying to convince Alan of this, although I suspect he still doesn't believe me 

That conscious mind is in 'control' is like claiming that a rainbow causes the storm that preceded it, to quote the research featured on Sane's thread 'the non conscious nature of being', or like claiming that the whistle of a steam engine drives the train, to recall the famous Huxley analogy.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You claim that there is no Self because our awareness and identity is affected when we sleep or in case of brain injury etc. Yet, just to get over the determination problem, you are willing to accept that the Unconscious mind drives our lives. 

If you agree that the Unconscious mind is the real driver of our lives behind the conscious mind....then the issue of the Self being hidden behind the conscious mind is solved.  The unconscious mind is  or is part of the Soul.  We (meaning... the conscious mind) have no idea what all this is or how it all works in any case.  So what is the problem?

Determinism only affects the material world because it is subject to physical laws.  The Unconscious mind (the soul) need not be subject to these laws. It is the element that influences and intervenes in our lives and directs not only our individual lives but all evolution itself. 

[torridon]

But you do not seem to recognise that consequences are evidence of control.  A rain bow is an easily identified consequence of a storm.  The whistle can only be a consequence of letting off excess steam.  A person overtaking the car in front is a consequence of a consciously controlled decision to overtake.

But the control lies in preconscious mind states, to which we don't normally have conscious access.  Our awareness of having chosen to do an overtaking manoeuvre lags behind the actual moment of decision. Only very exceptionally do we have access to preconscious mind states, for instance, when you experience a moment of deja vu; this happens when a preconscious mind state is retained into our conscious experience stream, giving the curious feeling that something has already happened.

Surprisingly perhaps, driving a car is an activity that we can do without needing conscious focus.  If you've ever had the experience of zoning out while driving a familiar route, you will know what I mean.  It is known as highway hypnosis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_hypnosis

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But the control lies in preconscious mind states, to which we don't normally have conscious access.  Our awareness of having chosen to do an overtaking manoeuvre lags behind the actual moment of decision. Only very exceptionally do we have access to preconscious mind states, for instance, when you experience a moment of deja vu; this happens when a preconscious mind state is retained into our conscious experience stream, giving the curious feeling that something has already happened.

Surprisingly perhaps, driving a car is an activity that we can do without needing conscious focus.  If you've ever had the experience of zoning out while driving a familiar route, you will know what I mean.  It is known as highway hypnosis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_hypnosis

So what about not zoning out but having to concentrate on an unfamiliar route.
That wouldn't fit well with your schema which depends on the opposite state.

[floo]

But the control lies in preconscious mind states, to which we don't normally have conscious access.  Our awareness of having chosen to do an overtaking manoeuvre lags behind the actual moment of decision. Only very exceptionally do we have access to preconscious mind states, for instance, when you experience a moment of deja vu; this happens when a preconscious mind state is retained into our conscious experience stream, giving the curious feeling that something has already happened.

Surprisingly perhaps, driving a car is an activity that we can do without needing conscious focus.  If you've ever had the experience of zoning out while driving a familiar route, you will know what I mean.  It is known as highway hypnosis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_hypnosis

Not a good state to be in when driving.

[ippy]

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You claim that there is no Self because our awareness and identity is affected when we sleep or in case of brain injury etc. Yet, just to get over the determination problem, you are willing to accept that the Unconscious mind drives our lives. 

If you agree that the Unconscious mind is the real driver of our lives behind the conscious mind....then the issue of the Self being hidden behind the conscious mind is solved.  The unconscious mind is  or is part of the Soul.  We (meaning... the conscious mind) have no idea what all this is or how it all works in any case.  So what is the problem?

Determinism only affects the material world because it is subject to physical laws.  The Unconscious mind (the soul) need not be subject to these laws. It is the element that influences and intervenes in our lives and directs not only our individual lives but all evolution itself.

I can live with your naming the unconscious mind a soul, simply because we haven't yet established how the unconscious mind's mechanisms work and indeed it could be something that may be, say, being pushed or pulled around by something from the quantum world we don't know nobody knows, but using words like soul with all of its history its links with ancient times where it would have been the words of soothsayers etc, along with perhaps the suggestion of sacrificing a goat.

Wouldn't it be better to refer to things we don't know or may never know as just that, rather than using words like soul that really time should have passed by long ago, they don't really mean anything and don't really help with a discussion of this kind.

Regards ippy

[Sriram]

But the control lies in preconscious mind states, to which we don't normally have conscious access.  Our awareness of having chosen to do an overtaking manoeuvre lags behind the actual moment of decision. Only very exceptionally do we have access to preconscious mind states, for instance, when you experience a moment of deja vu; this happens when a preconscious mind state is retained into our conscious experience stream, giving the curious feeling that something has already happened.

Surprisingly perhaps, driving a car is an activity that we can do without needing conscious focus.  If you've ever had the experience of zoning out while driving a familiar route, you will know what I mean.  It is known as highway hypnosis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_hypnosis

None of us know much about the Unconscious mind but your impression about it seems to be quite different from mine.

1. You are treating the automatic mode of the conscious mind as the unconscious mind. I don't agree.  When we eat or drive or walk or perform any routine habitual task, we are on automatic mode. We are not unconscious at all! We are very much conscious and are capable of handling any changes or sudden requirements.  We don't keep walking into puddles and potholes or drive into people crossing the road or eat more than we want to etc.  We can always change or control the situation consciously.

2. The unconscious mind is not just a store room of repressed memories that are responsible for our hidden fears and  desires.  The unconscious mind is much more than that. According to some of the articles I have linked earlier, the unconscious mind actively takes decisions and also is responsible for many complex tasks such as forecasting, placebo effect, spontaneous cures and so on.

3. You assume that the unconscious mind is merely a product of the brain. I believe that it is linked to our soul/Self which thereby directs our lives.   

[torridon]

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You claim that there is no Self because our awareness and identity is affected when we sleep or in case of brain injury etc. Yet, just to get over the determination problem, you are willing to accept that the Unconscious mind drives our lives. 

If you agree that the Unconscious mind is the real driver of our lives behind the conscious mind....then the issue of the Self being hidden behind the conscious mind is solved.  The unconscious mind is  or is part of the Soul.  We (meaning... the conscious mind) have no idea what all this is or how it all works in any case.  So what is the problem?

Determinism only affects the material world because it is subject to physical laws.  The Unconscious mind (the soul) need not be subject to these laws. It is the element that influences and intervenes in our lives and directs not only our individual lives but all evolution itself.

A couple of points on that.

"Determinism only affects the material world because it is subject to physical laws."

Echoes of Alan Burns here.  'Physical' and 'material' have no purchase on the concept of determinism.  Determinism is a principle of logic and thus transcends notions of natural law

"You claim that there is no Self because our awareness and identity is affected when we sleep or in case of brain injury etc. Yet, just to get over the determination "roblem, you are willing to accept that the Unconscious mind drives our lives."[/color]

I don't say there is No Self; rather what we have is a conscious self which is a product or aspect of the processes of consciousness.  I don't buy into claims that the self or soul is something ontologically distinct from the body as there is no evidence for that.

[torridon]

So what about not zoning out but having to concentrate on an unfamiliar route.
That wouldn't fit well with your schema which depends on the opposite state.

Yes, OK, but whatever we have to the fore of conscious mind is still always subject to consciousness lag. When driving in traffic, multiple road signs to read, watching out for children, changing gear, turning the steering wheel, it is pretty amazing how much multichannel processing we are doing simultaneously.  All of this is still subject to consciousness lag though.  Our minds are racing ahead taking critical decisions before we are 'aware' of them.

[torridon]

3. You assume that the unconscious mind is merely a product of the brain. I believe that it is linked to our soul/Self which thereby directs our lives.

That's the bit that is without any justification.  Our minds are intimately and continuously fashioned by their experience of life, and so they are the right tool to take decisions. There is no rationale for describing how something distinct and separate from us could possibly do a better job; nor is there any evidence to support such a strange notion.

[Alan Burns]

But the control lies in preconscious mind states, to which we don't normally have conscious access.  Our awareness of having chosen to do an overtaking manoeuvre lags behind the actual moment of decision. Only very exceptionally do we have access to preconscious mind states, for instance, when you experience a moment of deja vu; this happens when a preconscious mind state is retained into our conscious experience stream, giving the curious feeling that something has already happened.

Surprisingly perhaps, driving a car is an activity that we can do without needing conscious focus.  If you've ever had the experience of zoning out while driving a familiar route, you will know what I mean.  It is known as highway hypnosis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_hypnosis

Just think about what happens in your mind when you come up with an opportunity to overtake:

1. Is it possible to overtake?
2. Is it safe to overtake.
3. Do I need to overtake?
4. Do I want to overtake?

How can you possibly claim that all this happens in the sub conscious?

[Nearly Sane]

Just think about what happens in your mind when you come up with an opportunity to overtake:

1. Is it possible to overtake?
2. Is it safe to overtake.
3. Do I need to overtake?
4. Do I want to overtake?

How can you possibly claim that all this happens in the sub conscious?

Is that the four question marks of incredulity?

[SusanDoris]

I'm catching up again. Yesterday ALL DAY 'this page can't be displayed and all this morning too. It's so annoying.

[Maeght]

Just think about what happens in your mind when you come up with an opportunity to overtake:

1. Is it possible to overtake?
2. Is it safe to overtake.
3. Do I need to overtake?
4. Do I want to overtake?

How can you possibly claim that all this happens in the sub conscious?

How can you possibly claim it doesn't?