Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3738896 times)

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25675 on: January 08, 2018, 08:14:43 AM »
I just hope and pray that one day you will see the truth about God and His love for us.

In other words see it your way, you mean, even though there is no evidence to support your POV. ::)

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25676 on: January 08, 2018, 09:16:01 AM »
torridon

Thank you for more posts which should have a special corner on the internet which  ALL must read.

The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33041
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25677 on: January 08, 2018, 09:41:50 AM »
torridon

Thank you for more posts which should have a special corner on the internet which  ALL must read.
Yes, rarely have antitheism's urban myths been expressed so poetically.

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25678 on: January 08, 2018, 10:24:43 AM »

But what does it mean given that research ('intellectual understanding') demonstrates that 'direct knowing' is not direct knowing at all, but a personalised fabrication of more fundamental processes of mind.  To continue to emphasise direct knowing in that case reduces to choosing delusion, fully knowing it is delusion,  over truth.
If I am reading you correctly, what you say is the reason why the intellectual approach doesn't work.  It needs an object so that it can subjectively create  'personalised fabrications' which, as you say, could be seen as a delusion.  If you know that this is a delusion over truth then you imply that you know what truth is, or is that another delusion that you are holding on to.  The, so called, spiritual path seeks to transcend the fabrications of the mind and its emotional attachments to 'realise' the subject 'I' but not as an object which can be described by the mind, which will attempt to butt in to try to formalise it.  This is why conscious inner stillness is often seen to be the way to 'know'.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 10:30:38 AM by ekim »

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10200
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25679 on: January 08, 2018, 10:58:41 AM »
If I am reading you correctly, what you say is the reason why the intellectual approach doesn't work.  It needs an object so that it can subjectively create  'personalised fabrications' which, as you say, could be seen as a delusion.  If you know that this is a delusion over truth then you imply that you know what truth is, or is that another delusion that you are holding on to.  The, so called, spiritual path seeks to transcend the fabrications of the mind and its emotional attachments to 'realise' the subject 'I' but not as an object which can be described by the mind, which will attempt to butt in to try to formalise it.  This is why conscious inner stillness is often seen to be the way to 'know'.

To what degree can we 'transcend the fabrications of the mind' ? And what knowledge is it that is known if one achieves a state of 'conscious inner stillness' ?

To claim that we can transcend the fabrications of the mind presupposes that 'we' and 'mind' are distinct in some way,  There is a 'we' that can overcome it's own mind.  This might make sense in traditional teachings or in their more modern expressions that provide paths for disciplines of mind hopefully leading to certain transcendental mind states which can have beneficial outcomes for the searcher after inner peace and reconciliation. In that sense, I acknowledge your use of the work 'works'.

On the other hand there is nothing in research to support the notion of a separate 'me' that is separate from its own mind.  Rather, what we have is varying levels of mind, which people so minded can explore through meditation techniques.

My comment about 'direct knowing' was aimed at those who claim that personal direct knowledge exposes objective epistemic truths that are true for everyone.  Typically such people are apt to ignore the testimony of other people and claim along the lines of 'I just know I am right'.  Relevant findings from research suggests that personal experience is no guarantor of objective truth, in fact quite the opposite, we each of us see the world through a very private lens formed by our personal experience to date.  Here is a very simple and compelling evidence that our fundamental perceptions are false, and therefore not to be trusted as a guide to truth :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Grey_square_optical_illusion.svg/1200px-Grey_square_optical_illusion.svg.png

The squares marked A and B are the same colour, but even despite knowing that, intellectually, we are utterly unable to 'transcend the fabrications of our mind' and experience them directly and truthfully as they actually are.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:38:35 PM by torridon »

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3865
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25680 on: January 08, 2018, 12:19:48 PM »

Actually, in spirituality intellect is regarded as only of limited value.  Our eyes and ears  are very useful but are of limited value in knowing the universe. Similarly the intellect is also very useful in our lives but of limited value in understanding the intricacies of our inner experiences.

Spirituality and  religion emphasize direct knowing of reality rather than intellectual understanding.

I agree with you that understanding our own feelings and innermost thoughts often requires a spiritual approach, given though that the term 'spiritual' has such wide connotations.

However, we have evolved many qualities in order to survive, Sriram, use of the intellect being one of them, It is a very useful tool in our armoury for helping to describe and explain how the universe functions.

Of course the universe is not necessarily limited to our perception of it, there is so much more we do not know or understand. However our understanding is steadily progressing, not least because of our ability to rationalise. Our rational ideas, when compared with faith ideas, for instance, have had much more success in describing and explaining the universe as is.

Emotions, instincts and personal experience tend to fashion our ideas. These are significant qualities which enable us to survive. However our rational qualities (which, for instance, enables us to weigh evidence, think logically, and be aware that our own experience or emotions can be of limited value) allied to our natural curiosity, have a much better chance of understanding the universe and expanding our knowledge of it. Far from being a limiting factor,  they have a much greater potential for revealing the universe in which we live.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25681 on: January 08, 2018, 02:36:22 PM »

Ha..ha!  As with most people here, you ask lots of questions  but are unable to accommodate or digest the answers....even when they are not contrary to known facts.  ;)

Anyway cheers!  :)

Ha..ha! I think we're talking past each other!

Regards ippy

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8243
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25682 on: January 08, 2018, 02:38:18 PM »
I agree with you that understanding our own feelings and innermost thoughts often requires a spiritual approach, given though that the term 'spiritual' has such wide connotations.

However, we have evolved many qualities in order to survive, Sriram, use of the intellect being one of them, It is a very useful tool in our armoury for helping to describe and explain how the universe functions.

Of course the universe is not necessarily limited to our perception of it, there is so much more we do not know or understand. However our understanding is steadily progressing, not least because of our ability to rationalise. Our rational ideas, when compared with faith ideas, for instance, have had much more success in describing and explaining the universe as is.

Emotions, instincts and personal experience tend to fashion our ideas. These are significant qualities which enable us to survive. However our rational qualities (which, for instance, enables us to weigh evidence, think logically, and be aware that our own experience or emotions can be of limited value) allied to our natural curiosity, have a much better chance of understanding the universe and expanding our knowledge of it. Far from being a limiting factor,  they have a much greater potential for revealing the universe in which we live.


I am talking  about the natural limitations of our intellect because it is linked to our senses and our brain structure. It is not 'meant' to understand the universe and all its complexity. Our perceptions and the actual reality could be at variance. And this is only about the physical universe. What lies behind the physical world and what kind of phenomena drive the universe we have no way of knowing at all.

Secondly, this intellectual need that we feel for understanding the world is just an extended or perhaps even perverted need that we are unable to control. Instead of being a part of the world we could be actually separating ourselves from it as though we are different from it. .
 
There is a part of us that in actuality deals with many complex mechanisms in our lives though we don't understand them. Take the case of the birds that ippy talked of.  Like the birds....all plants and animals and all of us use complex 'quantum' mechanisms in our daily lives. We have been doing so for millennia before we understood what QM even means. There could be many more such complexities that we are  not even aware of yet.

It is paradoxical that our intellect is  struggling to understand what we use naturally every day.....even such obvious matters as the brain and our body functions.  What is that part of us that performs such complex tasks every day and what is that part of us that is trying to understand it?




ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25683 on: January 08, 2018, 02:58:51 PM »
Yes, rarely have anti theism's urban myths been expressed so poetically.

Surly to be anti anything the person you speak of in this case, would need to think there was something there there in the first place to be anti about, or against, however you would like to express it?

I think you'll find that S D doesn't think there is anything there to be theist about in the first place, so quite simply if there's nothing there what's there for this person to be anti about? I'm not anti the non existent either.

As far as I know S D wouldn't be believing urban myths or any of the many theistic myths either unless they could be backed up by some verifiable evidence of one kind or another.

Regards ippy

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25684 on: January 08, 2018, 03:07:45 PM »
I thought that 'urban myths' referred to torridon's posts, not Susan's.    But yes, I'm not sure what they are. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25685 on: January 08, 2018, 03:30:02 PM »

I am talking  about the natural limitations of our intellect because it is linked to our senses and our brain structure. It is not 'meant' to understand the universe and all its complexity. Our perceptions and the actual reality could be at variance. And this is only about the physical universe. What lies behind the physical world and what kind of phenomena drive the universe we have no way of knowing at all.

Secondly, this intellectual need that we feel for understanding the world is just an extended or perhaps even perverted need that we are unable to control. Instead of being a part of the world we could be actually separating ourselves from it as though we are different from it. .


 
There is a part of us that in actuality deals with many complex mechanisms in our lives though we don't understand them. Take the case of the birds that ippy talked of.  Like the birds....all plants and animals and all of us use complex 'quantum' mechanisms in our daily lives. We have been doing so for millennia before we understood what QM even means. There could be many more such complexities that we are  not even aware of yet.

It is paradoxical that our intellect is  struggling to understand what we use naturally every day.....even such obvious matters as the brain and our body functions.  What is that part of us that performs such complex tasks every day and what is that part of us that is trying to understand it?

Yes, talking past each other, our Jim Alkali did some research into how this bird navigates and he's put forward his theory about how this quantum effect works in this case.

The only reason I referred to this quantum stuff was in reply to where you said, I'm not quoting you verbatim, how things can get even more complicated the more you look into them, it's a fact he has looked into this phenomenon with the Robin and all I was doing was was only agreeing with you about how complicated things can get, and giving an example, nothing more than that, I wasn't referring  to any kind of woo nor do I want anything to do with woo I never have, I again was only agreeing with you about how complicated things can be the more you or we look into them.

Until we manage to find there's any evidence for things we don't know about at the mo, about the functioning of our minds, we don't know how our minds work and wouldn't it be better to keep looking and not guessing, other than perhaps have a guess at something that looks likely, test it and if it's no good, dump it, that's the starting and finishing point for me, you can make up all sorts of ideas, anything you like, without substantiation it's all woo to me. What's wrong with saying we don't know?

Regards ippy



Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25686 on: January 08, 2018, 03:47:15 PM »
He'd have to show some evidence for that, I can't see something that is not there. I cannot believe things for no reason.

First he'd have to show some evidence that he exists rather than hiding that evidence.  Then he'd have to show some evidence that he loves us rather than hiding it.

Nothing happens except by God's will, we are told; who are we to think we could force his hand to manifest if he doesn't want to ?

Clearly your hopes and prayers are out of line with god's will.
All the evidence you need is there for those who wish to find it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25687 on: January 08, 2018, 03:59:13 PM »
All the evidence you need is there for those who wish to find it.

Your inability to demonstrate the source of this so called evidence of yours shines out like a beacon, I'd be quite happy to find it if it was there, but there it's not very likely is it Alan?

Even more necessarily the kindest of good regards to you Alan, ippy.


 

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8243
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25688 on: January 08, 2018, 04:41:34 PM »
Yes, talking past each other, our Jim Alkali did some research into how this bird navigates and he's put forward his theory about how this quantum effect works in this case.

The only reason I referred to this quantum stuff was in reply to where you said, I'm not quoting you verbatim, how things can get even more complicated the more you look into them, it's a fact he has looked into this phenomenon with the Robin and all I was doing was was only agreeing with you about how complicated things can get, and giving an example, nothing more than that, I wasn't referring  to any kind of woo nor do I want anything to do with woo I never have, I again was only agreeing with you about how complicated things can be the more you or we look into them.

Until we manage to find there's any evidence for things we don't know about at the mo, about the functioning of our minds, we don't know how our minds work and wouldn't it be better to keep looking and not guessing, other than perhaps have a guess at something that looks likely, test it and if it's no good, dump it, that's the starting and finishing point for me, you can make up all sorts of ideas, anything you like, without substantiation it's all woo to me. What's wrong with saying we don't know?

Regards ippy


Woo?!!

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25689 on: January 08, 2018, 04:44:18 PM »
1....To what degree can we 'transcend the fabrications of the mind' ? And what knowledge is it that is known if one achieves a state of 'conscious inner stillness' ?

2.....To claim that we can transcend the fabrications of the mind presupposes that 'we' and 'mind' are distinct in some way,  There is a 'we' that can overcome it's own mind. 


1....Those questions illustrate what I was saying about the mind wanting to get in on the act and in your second question it requires an object 'knowledge' and converts 'conscious inner stillness' into a state i.e. something static so that it can pin a label on it and possibly analyse it further.  This is probably what a saying attributed to Buddha refers to : He who questions, errs and he who answers. errs.  However as this is a discussion site I'll try to add my two pennyworth.  Transcend literally means 'climb across' which I take to mean as  the centre of consciousness rises above the mind waves, like walking upon water, rather than being submerged amongst the mental forms and forces which the thinking mind likes to proliferate.  In religion speak, to do so requires faith which to me means persistence with a method and there are many methods.

2....The difficulty in answering that is what is meant by 'mind' and 'we' or 'I'?  Here we go playing the mind games again but I don't think it is about overcoming the mind which sounds more like suppression.  An analogy might be that of a wind surfer who has no way of suppressing the wind and waves but can train himself to consciously rise the waves and use the various currents without becoming submerged.  Another analogy might be seeing the waves as superficial activities of a lake and by consciously descending into the stillness below, those activities no longer distract.  In this case the mind is the lake with an inner light capable of illuminating its depths.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25690 on: January 08, 2018, 07:09:23 PM »

Woo?!!

I covered that: 'we don't know how our minds work and wouldn't it be better to keep looking and not guessing, other than perhaps have a guess at something that looks likely, test it and if it's no good, dump it',
 
In my book guessing things and woo amount to the same thing, I really don't think my post was that impenetrable.

Regards Sriram, ippy

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10200
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25691 on: January 08, 2018, 08:02:33 PM »
All the evidence you need is there for those who wish to find it.

Be sure to post up a link if anyone actually does discover any evidence; then we can all have a look.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25692 on: January 08, 2018, 08:11:58 PM »
All the evidence you need is there for those who wish to find it.

I take it you are another who doesn't worry unduly about confirmation bias.

If there is 'evidence', Alan, then it will be 'evident' irrespective of any personal wishes.

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25693 on: January 08, 2018, 09:01:04 PM »
All the evidence is there if you choose to invent it.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25694 on: January 09, 2018, 09:18:17 AM »
All the evidence is there if you choose to invent it.

Absolutely.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25695 on: January 09, 2018, 10:07:35 AM »
All the evidence is there if you choose to invent it.
But the materialist view says I can't choose anything because everything I do will be entirely pre determined in a deterministic world.

The freedom to choose is evidence of God, because it can't come from nature (and I certainly did not invent my freedom to choose).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:10:52 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3865
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25696 on: January 09, 2018, 10:19:43 AM »
Morning, Sriram,

Quote
I am talking  about the natural limitations of our intellect because it is linked to our senses and our brain structure. It is not 'meant' to understand the universe and all its complexity. Our perceptions and the actual reality could be at variance. And this is only about the physical universe. What lies behind the physical world and what kind of phenomena drive the universe we have no way of knowing at all.

Intellect is certainly linked to our brain structure, I would agree, just as, I would contend, is the 'spiritual' part of our nature. However all sorts of information feed into the brain from a variety of sources, which are certainly not limited to our so called 5 senses. One of the qualities that our brains possess is trying to understand the reasons for all sorts of phenomena(both internal and external). This is most likely driven by our innate curiosity. I personally would not use the word 'meant' because it implies some sort of outside direction, when there is no evidence that any except evolutionary demands are present. Whether our brains are capable of understanding all the complexities of the physical world is a question which I do not think it is possible to answer as I cannot possibly see that far into the future. Certainly we have come a long way in being able to explain how the physical universe works, although, of course, many difficult and puzzling questions remain. I would rephrase your last sentence here in this way:

"What, if anything, lies behind the physical world we have no way of knowing at all and what kind of phenomena drives the universe we still have much to learn."

Quote
Secondly, this intellectual need that we feel for understanding the world is just an extended or perhaps even perverted need that we are unable to control. Instead of being a part of the world we could be actually separating ourselves from it as though we are different from it. .

The intellectual need, as you put it, seems to be the result of a natural urge within human beings. Also, I would strongly disagree with your idea that this tends to lead to some sort of alienation. On the contrary, by examining the natural world and by trying to explain it by using our intellect, we increasingly see that we are part of this natural world, not separate from it.

Quote
There is a part of us that in actuality deals with many complex mechanisms in our lives though we don't understand them. Take the case of the birds that ippy talked of.  Like the birds....all plants and animals and all of us use complex 'quantum' mechanisms in our daily lives. We have been doing so for millennia before we understood what QM even means. There could be many more such complexities that we are  not even aware of yet.

Of course, the human species, like every other species, has been able to manipulate all sorts of natural phenomena without being aware of it. That goes without saying. The fact that birds, as well as plants etc. seem to be able to use quantum phenomena(in the case of the robin, quantum entanglement based upon cryptochrome in the eye creating a chemical compass where photons are able to respond to magnetoreception) is fascinating and hugely complex, but, as you say, many of these complex processes have only been discovered very recently. Of course there will be many complexities that we are not aware of yet. So. What is wrong with seeking to understand complex phenomena such as the above when we can identify them?

Quote
It is paradoxical that our intellect is  struggling to understand what we use naturally every day.....even such obvious matters as the brain and our body functions.  What is that part of us that performs such complex tasks every day and what is that part of us that is trying to understand it?

I don't think that it is paradoxical at all. The more we discover how the world works, the more likely we are to see how we fit into the overall picture and the more we can discover about ourselves as physical entities, which, to my mind, includes both the intellectual and the spiritual side. As far as the last question goes, maybe it has something to do with the various areas of the brain interacting and communicating with each other through EM activity. Certainly, for instance, recent experiments have suggested that the synchronicity of nerve firing  correlates with a conscious state.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10200
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25697 on: January 09, 2018, 10:55:20 AM »
But the materialist view says I can't choose anything because everything I do will be entirely pre determined in a deterministic world.

The freedom to choose is evidence of God, because it can't come from nature (and I certainly did not invent my freedom to choose).

We don't have freedom, per se, we have a feeling of freedom, resulting from the fact that constraining factors are below our everyday awareness.  We only get upset about loss of freedom when we become aware of external factors infringing what we consider to be our right.

There's nothing supernatural about feelings, we get them all the time.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:58:53 AM by torridon »

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25698 on: January 09, 2018, 11:16:52 AM »
But the materialist view says I can't choose anything because everything I do will be entirely pre determined in a deterministic world.

The freedom to choose is evidence of God, because it can't come from nature (and I certainly did not invent my freedom to choose).

Only because you want to believe that to be true!

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10149
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25699 on: January 09, 2018, 11:49:51 AM »

There's nothing supernatural about feelings, we get them all the time.
So how would you define a feeling in material terms?
What is it that perceives a feeling?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton