Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Another post where you show your lack of understanding! How is will not thought? To have an intention is thought. You have just repeated your infinite regress position with different words.

If thoughts are just deterministic patterns of electrons buzzing around my brain, then I have no control.  But there is more to it than that, because I can direct my thoughts by my conscious willpower.

[Alan Burns]

Dreams are a form of thought.

Can you control your dreams too ?

Dreams occur when I am not fully conscious - I can perceive them, but I do not control them.  This highlights the difference between controlled thoughts and uncontrolled thoughts. 

[Nearly Sane]

If thoughts are just deterministic patterns of electrons buzzing around my brain, then I have no control.  But there is more to it than that, because I can direct my thoughts by my conscious willpower.

And as direction/driving/willpower are all thoughts your infinite regress continues.

[Maeght]

Our abilities to make assertions (whether they are deemed to be right or wrong) are clear evidence that we are in control of what we say or post.

No it isn't. I think this sort of comment just reflects your simplistic view of what people mean when they say our apparent choices are not free but are predetermined by previous events.

[ippy]

I think for myself, Ippy, using the gift of free will which God has given me.  I back up my so called assertions with the fact that there is no possible material explanation for our conscious awareness and conscious interaction, so I look to God's revelations to seek the truth.

So you think Alan.

Without any sensible use of logic or reason you're just hanging on to a blind use of the rapidly overall diminishing remains of primitive man's bygone belief world.

I really do feel sad for you and the others that find it so hard to come to grips with the realities of this world and would rather than face reality, instead prefer to submerge themselves/yourself into these largely discredited mystic, magical and superstition based beliefs.

Incidentally, I note Alan you seem to be totally oblivious to the amount of completely unsupported assertions you keep making and totally unable to prevent yourself from making them, even when you must be aware they are so completely unsupported.

Surly Alan, you must be aware of how ridiculous these continuing unsupported assertions make you look, it's not as though overall you're not a reasonably intelligent bloke, these unfounded assertions of yours lead me to think that you must have been very heavily indoctrinated with this stuff when you were very young, if it were otherwise I don't think you'd be making so many of them. 

Wishing you all of the best and kindest of regards Alan, ippy.

[torridon]

Dreams occur when I am not fully conscious - I can perceive them, but I do not control them.  This highlights the difference between controlled thoughts and uncontrolled thoughts.

So you accept that some thoughts are not controllable.

Think of a number at random between 1 and 100.  What was the first number that came into your head ?  Did you 'control' which number was the first one to pop into mind ?

[Alan Burns]

No it isn't. I think this sort of comment just reflects your simplistic view of what people mean when they say our apparent choices are not free but are predetermined by previous events.

Do you honestly believe that every choice you make is entirely predetermined by previous events, or are you just trying to comply with human scientific theory?

[Alan Burns]

So you accept that some thoughts are not controllable.

Yes, but some are most definitely controlled.

Think of a number at random between 1 and 100.  What was the first number that came into your head ?  Did you 'control' which number was the first one to pop into mind ?

I control the act of deciding whether or not to bother to choosing a number
I chose not to bother.

[Maeght]

Do you honestly believe that every choice you make is entirely predetermined by previous events, or are you just trying to comply with human scientific theory?

I think our brains are programmed by previous experiences to respond to situations in a certain way. With each experience the programming can be altered so beliefs, response and tastes can change, but at any one moment I think our choices are predetermined by previous events, yes. I cannot see how it can be different unless there is a separate entity making choices for us which is totally detached from our previous experiences and I see no evidence for that.

[torridon]

Yes, but some are most definitely controlled.I control the act of deciding whether or not to bother to choosing a number
I chose not to bother.

Yes, we've noticed you are never really interested in actually engaging with insight.  Habitual avoidance is rendering you a long way behind the curve.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, we've noticed you are never really interested in actually engaging with insight.  Habitual avoidance is rendering you a long way behind the curve.

But it is still my free choice, and I choose not to engage in fruitless excercises

[torridon]

Do you honestly believe that every choice you make is entirely predetermined by previous events, or are you just trying to comply with human scientific theory?

Can you honestly believe that your mind state in any moment is not a consequence of what has gone before ?

Something good happens, we feel happy; Something bad happens, we feel upset. 

We do not choose our mind state, it forms within us as a consequence.

[Maeght]

But it is still my free choice, and I choose not to engage in fruitless excercises

Or your brain is programmed to do it.

[torridon]

But it is still my free choice, and I choose not to engage in fruitless excercises

Like the teacher's nightmare pupil, not the one who finds learning difficult, but the one who doesn't want to learn.

[ippy]

Do you honestly believe that every choice you make is entirely predetermined by previous events, or are you just trying to comply with human scientific theory?

Just trying to comply with human scientific theory, I wonder if you realise exactly what you're, in effect saying here?

Complying with human scientific theory that could also be described as, complying with a reasoned, evidence based theory, I would say reasoned thoughts trump assertion any time, why is this so difficult for you to understand Alan?

I also noticed you haven't managed to learn anything from the rather large amount of posts that mostly appeal for some sort of reasoned reply from you, looks like a reasoned reply from your direction unfortunatly that wont be arriving any time soon, it would also be good to hear a sensible answer from you that doesn't include another one of your meaningless assertions Alan.

All of the very best wishes and kind regards to you Alan, ippy

[torridon]

Just trying to comply with human scientific theory, I wonder if you realise exactly what you're, in effect saying here?

Complying with human scientific theory that could also be described as, complying with a reasoned, evidence based theory, I would say reasoned thoughts trump assertion any time, why is this so difficult for you to understand Alan?

yes, well picked up.

'just trying to comply with human scientific theory' is both condescending, as if Alan is above all that mere human stuff, therefore above all the rest of us; also it suggests the idea that we all secretly see the world like Alan, but are affecting otherwise out of some sort of politically correct nod to the current supremacy of science.

[Alan Burns]

Like the teacher's nightmare pupil, not the one who finds learning difficult, but the one who doesn't want to learn.

And what is it that drives this want? (or lack of it)?
You have hit on the unique human gift of being free to do what they want - within certain constraints of course.

[Alan Burns]

Just trying to comply with human scientific theory, I wonder if you realise exactly what you're, in effect saying here?

Complying with human scientific theory that could also be described as, complying with a reasoned, evidence based theory, I would say reasoned thoughts trump assertion any time, why is this so difficult for you to understand Alan?

But no matter how reasoned human thoughts can be, they do not trump reality.

[torridon]

And what is it that drives this want? (or lack of it)?
You have hit on the unique human gift of being free to do what they want - within certain constraints of course.

My rationale says there are reasons behind that want, yours has only 'mystery'.  My rationale says there are reasons for things; yours just has souls wanting things with no explanation or derivation. My rationale is true to the sweeping insight that all things are connected and every action has consequences; you've just got a magic black box, disconnected, irrational, inexplicable.  If a god created this universe, then he made it understandable, in principle, it seems, and we are at our best when we rise to that challenge, rather than just settling for 'magic'.

[floo]

But no matter how reasoned human thoughts can be, they do not trump reality.

Your reality is different to mine.

[Alan Burns]

My rationale says there are reasons behind that want, yours has only 'mystery'.  My rationale says there are reasons for things; yours just has souls wanting things with no explanation or derivation. My rationale is true to the sweeping insight that all things are connected and every action has consequences; you've just got a magic black box, disconnected, irrational, inexplicable.  If a god created this universe, then he made it understandable, in principle, it seems, and we are at our best when we rise to that challenge, rather than just settling for 'magic'.

I believe God's universe was intended to be consciously understood and manipulated, but these attributes of conscious understanding and manipulation are in themselves beyond human comprehension - because they are not of this inherently deterministic universe.

[floo]

I believe God's universe was intended to be consciously understood and manipulated, but these attributes of conscious understanding and manipulation are in themselves beyond human comprehension - because they are not of this inherently deterministic universe.

Your god is a psycho if it deliberately created something, which it knew would cause terrible suffering to some of its puppets!

[torridon]

I believe God's universe was intended to be consciously understood and manipulated, but these attributes of conscious understanding and manipulation are in themselves beyond human comprehension - because they are not of this inherently deterministic universe.

That's nonsense, without any justification.

[Gordon]

I believe God's universe was intended to be consciously understood and manipulated, but these attributes of conscious understanding and manipulation are in themselves beyond human comprehension - because they are not of this inherently deterministic universe.

A superb example of vacuous theobabble: well done you.

[ippy]

But no matter how reasoned human thoughts can be, they do not trump reality.

Just trying to comply with human scientific theory, I wonder if you realise exactly what you're, in effect saying here?

Complying with human scientific theory that could also be described as, complying with a reasoned, evidence based theory, I would say reasoned thoughts trump assertion any time, why is this so difficult for you to understand Alan?


But no matter how reasoned human thoughts can be, they do not trump reality.

=====

There you go again Alan, throwing your rationality to the wind and going to ridiculous illogical lengths to square things with your mind about your unsubstantiated unsupported beliefs.

With the kindest of all possible well wishing regards Alan, ippy.