Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

I suspect it is the materialists who dislike the concept of human free will, because to admit its existence leads on to the first step of discovering that we all have a spiritual nature.  As Sweetpea recently pointed out, many on this thread seem unable to take this first important step in a journey to faith which could lead on to an amazing journey of discovery.

Given that you haven't been able to provide a coherent description of what free really means in the context of choice, you are only confirming that such a 'journey of faith' would be a journey away from reason into a world of irrational beliefs.

[wigginhall]

It's all so wishy-washy.   Free will, spiritual nature, journey to faith, journey of discovery - yawn, yawn.   Is there a good film on TV tonight?

[Maeght]

I suspect it is the materialists who dislike the concept of human free will, because to admit its existence leads on to the first step of discovering that we all have a spiritual nature.

Nope.

As Sweetpea recently pointed out, many on this thread seem unable to take this first important step in a journey to faith which could lead on to an amazing journey of discovery.

This was patronising and wrong when Sweetpea said it and is juust as much when you repeat it.

[Nearly Sane]

I suspect it is the materialists who dislike the concept of human free will, because to admit its existence leads on to the first step of discovering that we all have a spiritual nature.  As Sweetpea recently pointed out, many on this thread seem unable to take this first important step in a journey to faith which could lead on to an amazing journey of discovery.

Given up logic, not that you ever took it uo, to go back to your common tactic of accusing peolpe of lying. How many times do you feel that doing this is at all useful?

Then of course you also go and tell Rhiannon that she is specifically lying about her experiences and by that indulging in the No True Scotsman fallacy. So no logic and a bit of indulgent and repeated implying  people are liars.

[Maeght]

If what you say is true, the implication would be that any criminal would have a cast iron alibi for any criminal act because they could say it was just an unavoidable consequence of their sub conscious brain activity over which they have no control.  You could make a fortune as a defence lawyer if you were able to convince a jury of your convictions.

If someone commits a crime they are guilty and the law needs to deal with that. One aspect is to remove that individual from society so they cannot more crimes and another is to rehabilitate the individual so they don't commit another crime when released. Your argument would seem to be relevanat only to the punishment aspect of any action by the courts, an aspect which society has tried to move away from.

Because people commit criminal acts due to the way they are programmed by previous events does not mean action should not be taken by courts.

[ippy]

Alan Burns:
'I suspect it is the materialists who dislike the concept of human free will, because to admit its existence leads on to the first step of discovering that we all have a spiritual nature.  As Sweet Pea recently pointed out, many on this thread seem unable to take this first important step in a journey to faith which could lead on to an amazing journey of discovery'.

It would be an amazing journey, if it contained the slightest bit of substance rather than as it remains, nonsense, until that very unlikely day it becomes supported

Poor old Alan, but best wishes anyway, ippy

[Alan Burns]

If someone commits a crime they are guilty and the law needs to deal with that. One aspect is to remove that individual from society so they cannot more crimes and another is to rehabilitate the individual so they don't commit another crime when released. Your argument would seem to be relevanat only to the punishment aspect of any action by the courts, an aspect which society has tried to move away from.

Because people commit criminal acts due to the way they are programmed by previous events does not mean action should not be taken by courts.

So does the word "deliberate" becomes redundant in your view?

[Maeght]

So does the word "deliberate" becomes redundant in your view?

It retains its meaning - to do something consciously and intentionally. Why would it be redundant?

[ippy]

It retains its meaning - to do something consciously and intentionally. Why would it be redundant?

It looks to me Alan hasn't fully understood you Maeght, where you're about breaking the circle of criminality etc. This is an area where a very large number of religionists of all colours, it seems to me, they flat line on, it's a me no understandie moment they share with each other.

Regards ippy

[torridon]

But no matter how reasoned human thoughts can be, they do not trump reality.

We could say that Reason trumps Reality, though, in the sense that our apparent reality, our experience of being, our perceptions and cognitions as individuals, these are not actual objective realities, they are highly subjective minimalist views on reality.  Brains have absolutely no remit whatsoever to construct a subjective awareness of reality, as it is; the way we perceive the world is born of the evolutionary paradigm to keep an individual alive at minimal cost; for sure, if there were rival groups that could survive at lower cost then they would out compete us.  A wolf does not need to know about cell biology in grazing herbivores in order to bring a bison down; and so it is with all living things, we only know what we need to know in order to best survive.

Humans have a perhaps unrivalled capacity to conceive abstracted models of what 'real' reality might be like, transcending the merely survival oriented layers of their inbuilt systems for perception and cognition.  If I were of a religious frame of mind, it is this that I would be calling God's greatest 'gift' to mankind, not the claim of free will which collapses into irrational self-contradiction when it is subjected to reason. It is our extended ability to reason that marks humans out; deciding not to use it would be like an eagle deciding not to fly, or like a fish deciding it doesn't like swimming. By running solely on 'how it seems' and ignoring the richer insights that reason can reveal, you are ignoring your God's greatest gift to you.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I don't think AB is running solely on "how it seems". I think he is deciding how much of reason that leads to "don't know" he wants to incorporate into his outlook on life,

I don't understand your point about "richer insights". Are they "richer insights" because that's how it seems to you or is there an objective standard for "richer insights" i.e. an evidence-based definition of what constitutes or defines something as "richer"?

[Alan Burns]

It retains its meaning - to do something consciously and intentionally. Why would it be redundant?

Because I fail to see how a consciously invoked action can be compatible with the concept of everything being entirely pre determined by past events.  I know you will claim that consciously invoked actions are just part of this deterministic scenario by assuming that conscious choices are not choices at all, but merely reactions to events.  But my simple, most basic concept of reality tells me that a conscious action is invoked by me - not by events beyond my control. 

[ippy]

I don't think AB is running solely on "how it seems". I think he is deciding how much of reason that leads to "don't know" he wants to incorporate into his outlook on life,

I don't understand your point about "richer insights". Are they "richer insights" because that's how it seems to you or is there an objective standard for "richer insights" i.e. an evidence-based definition of what constitutes or defines something as "richer"?

I think you have a point in the second part of this post of yours Gabriella.

Bear with me, it may look as though I'm going off at a tangent.

I'm a great fan of the 'blues' type of music, it often consists of 99.999%r of a black guy, a black guy that can't sing very well, can't play the guitar very well nor play the harmonica very well either, but when put together and you listen, difficult to describe, it comes together, it works, always brings drop of the wet stuff to the corner of my eye, it's wonderful in its crudeness, a crudeness that disappears as the music goes forward, oh yes, and by the way I quite like listening to and hearing the 'blues' as well.

The point of the above is yes to your poser, what constitutes or defines something as "richer"? I don't know.

Regards ippy

[Alan Burns]

I think you have a point in the second part of this post of yours Gabriella.

Bear with me, it may look as though I'm going off at a tangent.

I'm a great fan of the 'blues' type of music, it often consists of 99.999%r of a black guy, a black guy that can't sing very well, can't play the guitar very well nor play the harmonica very well either, but when put together and you listen, difficult to describe, it comes together, it works, always brings drop of the wet stuff to the corner of my eye, it's wonderful in its crudeness, a crudeness that disappears as the music goes forward, oh yes, and by the way I quite like listening to and hearing the 'blues' as well.

The point of the above is yes to your poser, what constitutes or defines something as "richer"? I don't know.

Regards ippy

Not sure of the point you are trying to make here Ippy, but I too have been a fan of blues music ever since I heard John Lee Hooker playing his guitar badly and singing with a gravelly voice back in the early sixties.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Not sure of the point you are trying to make here Ippy, but I too have been a fan of blues music ever since I heard John Lee Hooker playing his guitar badly and singing with a gravelly voice back in the early sixties.

I'm retired from this mb but matron has given me permission to look in just to say that, surely, your first love should actually be "soul" music shouldn't it?

[Maeght]

Because I fail to see how a consciously invoked action can be compatible with the concept of everything being entirely pre determined by past events.  I know you will claim that consciously invoked actions are just part of this deterministic scenario by assuming that conscious choices are not choices at all, but merely reactions to events.  But my simple, most basic concept of reality tells me that a conscious action is invoked by me - not by events beyond my control.

You have added the word invoked, the definition just says a conscious action, so an action of which you are aware.

I know you feel that your conscious actions are free but you have never been able to demonstrate that to be true or explain how such a process could happen.

[floo]

You have added the eird ibvoked, the definitiob just says a conscious action so an actipn of which you are aware.

I know you feel that your conscious actions are free but you have never been able to demonstrste that tobe true or explain how such a process could happen.

And in English? Don't you have a spell checker?

[Maeght]

And in English? Don't you have a spell checker?

Modified now.

[ippy]

Not sure of the point you are trying to make here Ippy, but I too have been a fan of blues music ever since I heard John Lee Hooker playing his guitar badly and singing with a gravelly voice back in the early sixties.

First thing Alan, when I hear the general musical shortcomings of a large number of its exponents, it shouldn't be worth listening to, on the contrary it's a wonderful, to my ear, as an art form, why, I don't know?   

Just because I don't know why this form of music is so beautiful to my ear I can't explain why or how effects me this way, it feels to me as though it goes right down through to the roots of my body, even so I don't have any need to employ the idea of a Mr Magic of some kind engineering this feeling for me, nor can I see that there is any logical or rational reason to think there is a would be a Mr Magic involved at any stage and then after having said that lot I can't see any reason to feel awkward about saying I don't know why it makes me feel this way, I just don't know.

Going back to my response to Gabriella about how you can define richer insights, I could see what it was she was alluding to and used my own experience with blues music to explain how by experience I go along with her point of view and how there are some things that are impossible to define precisely, yet some can't take these sorts of uncomplicated feelings unless there is some kind of sky fairy projecting these feelings at us and they're somehow involved, people like you, that it seems to me, are unable to come to terms with the normal human condition, for reasons best known by yourselves you seem to have this need to make up stories like a sky fairy etc before you can accept these feelings are just another one of the so well evolved normal human feelings.

Why make up the add on fairy stories, what's wrong with saying I don't understand, I don't know?

Hoping things improve for you and best wishes for you and your needs Alan, ippy.

[ippy]

AB,

I'm retired from this mb but matron has given me permission to look in just to say that, surely, your first love should actually be "soul" music shouldn't it?

Are you in a bed with your leg in one of those large plaster casts held up at about thirty degrees, Oliver?

Keep your eye on anyone going near the counterweight.

Regards ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

ipster,

Are you in a bed with your leg in one of those large plaster casts held up at about thirty degrees, Oliver?

Keep you're eye on anyone going near the counterweight.

Selfie:

http://www.moviesteve.com/film-of-the-day-5-july-carry-on-nurse/

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

First thing Alan, when I hear the general musical shortcomings of a large number of its exponents, it shouldn't be worth listening to, on the contrary it's a wonderful, to my ear, as an art form, why, I don't know?   

Just because I don't know why this form of music is so beautiful to my ear I can't explain why or how effects me this way, it feels to me as though it goes right down through to the roots of my body, even so I don't have any need to employ the idea of a Mr Magic of some kind engineering this feeling for me, nor can I see that there is any logical or rational reason to think there is a would be a Mr Magic involved at any stage and then after having said that lot I can't see any reason to feel awkward about saying I don't know why it makes me feel this way, I just don't know.

Going back to my response to Gabriella about how you can define richer insights, I could see what it was she was alluding to and used my own experience with blues music to explain how by experience I go along with her point of view and how there are some things that are impossible to define precisely, yet some can't take these sorts of uncomplicated feelings unless there is some kind of sky fairy projecting these feelings at us and they're somehow involved, people like you, that it seems to me, are unable to come to terms with the normal human condition, for reasons best known by yourselves you seem to have this need to make up stories like a sky fairy etc before you can accept these feelings are just another one of the so well evolved normal human feelings.

Why make up the add on fairy stories, what's wrong with saying I don't understand, I don't know?

Hoping things improve for you and best wishes for you and your needs Alan, ippy.

The sky fairy adds a different inexplicable tone to the music. For some people the difference in tone creates a different richness that appeals to them more than the tone without the sky fairy.

I also thought you meant that the individual components appear flawed but put the flawed bits together and it has an effect that appeals to or seems rich to some people but just seems like a mish-mash of flawed pointless noise to others.

[ippy]

ipster,

Selfie:

http://www.moviesteve.com/film-of-the-day-5-july-carry-on-nurse/

Thought so!

ippy

[ippy]

The sky fairy adds a different inexplicable tone to the music. For some people the difference in tone creates a different richness that appeals to them more than the tone without the sky fairy.

I also thought you meant that the individual components appear flawed but put the flawed bits together and it has an effect that appeals to or seems rich to some people but just seems like a mish-mash of flawed pointless noise to others.

I try hard to get away from a battle about the way I describe my views or descriptions of material things without feeling I need to write a look alike shelf yard of books about my current thesis.

I do feel I had expressed myself in one with that previous post, I don't do hidden agendas, the words I presented in that post, that's it. 

Regards ippy

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I try hard to get away from a battle about the way I describe my views or descriptions of material things without feeling I need to write a look alike shelf yard of books about my current thesis.

I do feel I had expressed myself in one with that previous post, I don't do hidden agendas, the words I presented in that post, that's it. 

Regards ippy

That's fine. Some people use this forum to have a discussion rather than just make a statement. Some say diversity increases richness.