Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3867163 times)

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25850 on: January 16, 2018, 10:59:25 AM »
As I have pointed out many times before - animal behaviours can be ascribed to a predictable reactions based upon instinct and learnt experiences needed for survival.  The word deliberate is redundant in this situation because it is simply a natural reaction.

You need to do perhaps a short course and learn some more about human psychology Alan you'll learn about the many aspects of human behaviour based upon instinct and learnt experiences needed for survival, just those ones, of many aspects, those particular aspects we share with our fellow animals would be very enlightening for you, could possibly be very enlightening for you?

I think I've mentioned this before about supposedly devout students of human psychology having significant struggles with their beliefs, on learning so much more about the real life things in life that drive us as opposed to the superstition based silly ones that you seem to prefer.

Necessarily well meant and all the best of very good wishes to you Alan, ippy.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25851 on: January 16, 2018, 07:01:56 PM »
You need to do perhaps a short course and learn some more about human psychology Alan you'll learn about the many aspects of human behaviour based upon instinct and learnt experiences needed for survival, just those ones, of many aspects, those particular aspects we share with our fellow animals would be very enlightening for you, could possibly be very enlightening for you?

I think I've mentioned this before about supposedly devout students of human psychology having significant struggles with their beliefs, on learning so much more about the real life things in life that drive us as opposed to the superstition based silly ones that you seem to prefer.

Necessarily well meant and all the best of very good wishes to you Alan, ippy.
But not everyone who studies psychology struggles with their faith.  One of my most devout Christian friends is a professor of psychology working for the NHS.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25852 on: January 17, 2018, 11:34:30 AM »
But not everyone who studies psychology struggles with their faith.  One of my most devout Christian friends is a professor of psychology working for the NHS.

He's probably to polite to spell it out to you Alan.

Good and kind regards Alan, ippy.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25853 on: January 17, 2018, 01:50:26 PM »
He's probably to polite to spell it out to you Alan.

I do not think so, because he and his family are regular church goers, and he and his wife often meet up with us and other Christian friends for sharing, prayer and discussion.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25854 on: January 17, 2018, 04:22:21 PM »
But not everyone who studies psychology struggles with their faith.  One of my most devout Christian friends is a professor of psychology working for the NHS.
Are 'souls' part of the psychology toolbox in the NHS?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25855 on: January 17, 2018, 04:49:10 PM »
I do not think so, because he and his family are regular church goers, and he and his wife often meet up with us and other Christian friends for sharing, prayer and discussion.


Yes I believe you Alan, but there is a but I know from experience, the superstitious believers, faith people, whatever generally find these psychology courses very difficult to navigate, even so having said that, there a lot of behaviour we humans have that is without any doubt instinctual, just as our fellow animals have these so very similar instinctual behaviours.

I often do wonder why you don't see all of this religion stuff as man made, it's not like it's even so subtly set out so that it's not too obvious or anything like that? Then when you add that there's virtually zero evidence to be found anywhere to back it up in any way and you can be sure if there were any viable evidence to be found, people like yourself wouldn't exactly be holding such evidence back from the rest of us.

Which in turn goes on to the fact if such viable evidence had been found wouldn't the world media had or have gone berserk or be going absolutely ballistic? Doesn't this fact give you anything to think about? The fact there is no or never has been any such an event and it's even unlikely to ever happen, all of these clues and in your case it doesn't seem to be ringing any bells? 

I wish you well and all of the very best of thoughts to you Alan, ippy.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25856 on: January 17, 2018, 05:01:27 PM »

Yes I believe you Alan, but there is a but I know from experience, the superstitious believers, faith people, whatever generally find these psychology courses very difficult to navigate, even so having said that, there a lot of behaviour we humans have that is without any doubt instinctual, just as our fellow animals have these so very similar instinctual behaviours.

I often do wonder why you don't see all of this religion stuff as man made, it's not like it's even so subtly set out so that it's not too obvious or anything like that? Then when you add that there's virtually zero evidence to be found anywhere to back it up in any way and you can be sure if there were any viable evidence to be found, people like yourself wouldn't exactly be holding such evidence back from the rest of us.

Which in turn goes on to the fact if such viable evidence had been found wouldn't the world media had or have gone berserk or be going absolutely ballistic? Doesn't this fact give you anything to think about? The fact there is no or never has been any such an event and it's even unlikely to ever happen, all of these clues and in your case it doesn't seem to be ringing any bells? 

I wish you well and all of the very best of thoughts to you Alan, ippy.
Well, I find the evidence for God to be truly overwhelming, and it is a mystery to me how so many people seem to be able to either ignore it or to not appreciate it.  I find the alternative logic put forward to doubt God's existence to be extremely shallow in comparison.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25857 on: January 17, 2018, 05:08:39 PM »
Are 'souls' part of the psychology toolbox in the NHS?
I am sure that the freedom for people to make their own conscious choices is taken into account, and if this freedom does not derive from the spiritual soul, it can't be classed as freedom.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25858 on: January 17, 2018, 05:20:22 PM »
Well, I find the evidence for God to be truly overwhelming, and it is a mystery to me how so many people seem to be able to either ignore it or to not appreciate it.  I find the alternative logic put forward to doubt God's existence to be extremely shallow in comparison.

It is not about ignoring it or not accepting it but rather that we do not find it convincing. To suggest otherwise is wrong.

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25859 on: January 17, 2018, 05:24:28 PM »
Well, I find the evidence for God to be truly overwhelming, and it is a mystery to me how so many people seem to be able to either ignore it or to not appreciate it.  I find the alternative logic put forward to doubt God's existence to be extremely shallow in comparison.

In your own mind, maybe, but there is no verifiable evidence any god exists.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25860 on: January 17, 2018, 05:28:28 PM »
Well, I find the evidence for God to be truly overwhelming, and it is a mystery to me how so many people seem to be able to either ignore it or to not appreciate it.  I find the alternative logic put forward to doubt God's existence to be extremely shallow in comparison.

If you've discovered some evidence, then post up a link so we can all have a look.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25861 on: January 17, 2018, 08:13:40 PM »
Well, I find the evidence for God to be truly overwhelming, and it is a mystery to me how so many people seem to be able to either ignore it or to not appreciate it.  I find the alternative logic put forward to doubt God's existence to be extremely shallow in comparison.

Come on Alan overwhelm everybody, with this supposed alternative logic, that you think gives a reason to actually look for something like a god, then if you find anything pointing toward your god idea, see then if you can represent your god idea as fact.

If you manage the long hard job above we'll all have to join you, If you do try, I think you already know the outcome.

All the very best of luck with that regards to you Alan, ippy.
 

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25862 on: January 17, 2018, 11:25:12 PM »
If you've discovered some evidence, then post up a link so we can all have a look.
The most fundamental argument comes from a much more gifted person than I am:

If (as many atheists claim) the world really boils down to a complex set of chemical and physical processes then love, beauty, meaning and even truth itself are merely illusions of a mechanical mind: “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25863 on: January 18, 2018, 12:11:12 AM »
The most fundamental argument comes from a much more gifted person than I am:

If (as many atheists claim) the world really boils down to a complex set of chemical and physical processes then love, beauty, meaning and even truth itself are merely illusions of a mechanical mind: “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”


So no evidence then.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25864 on: January 18, 2018, 02:37:02 AM »
I am sure that the freedom for people to make their own conscious choices is taken into account, and if this freedom does not derive from the spiritual soul, it can't be classed as freedom.
Not really what I asked.
Does the NHS have as part of it's repertoire of psychology treatments and diagnoses, direct reference to souls?
Maybe your friend can help you with that one?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25865 on: January 18, 2018, 08:13:08 AM »
I can answer that, no it doesn't.

Everyone is still asking Alan for evidence - there is none, nothing tangible.  He knows he can't prove it, everyone else knows too. Faith is about personal experience but it's in our heads, we can't show it.

This thread goes on and on, round and round, saying the same things over and over again. Fun I suppose.

True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25866 on: January 18, 2018, 08:27:05 AM »
Yes two different language frames. I don't think people of faith need be frightened that the self is not independent from nature. We are after all creations.
As for the naturalists here they haven't fully grasped the implications of emergence and some of the reductionists here still try the full explanation of phenomena by the previous level of organisation and take the Dennett approach.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25867 on: January 18, 2018, 08:59:49 AM »
The most fundamental argument comes from a much more gifted person than I am:

If (as many atheists claim) the world really boils down to a complex set of chemical and physical processes then love, beauty, meaning and even truth itself are merely illusions of a mechanical mind: “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”


That's not evidence though.  That's just incredulity.  And it's not just any old incredulity, it's cherry picked incredulity - you don't seem to have any incredulity problems ascribing the terror felt by a fox being chased by hounds mechanistically to brains which derive from biochemistry which derive from the meaningless flux of atoms; that you don't seem to have a problem with. Why the arbitrary distinction ?  To me it just looks like anthropocentric hubris with which to flatter ourselves that humans are something special, something separate.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:11:53 AM by torridon »

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18265
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25868 on: January 18, 2018, 09:14:17 AM »
The most fundamental argument comes from a much more gifted person than I am:

If (as many atheists claim) the world really boils down to a complex set of chemical and physical processes then love, beauty, meaning and even truth itself are merely illusions of a mechanical mind: “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”


And who is this gifted person?

They seem, like you, to be a fallacy fan.

Update: just checked and it is CS Lewis: gifted no doubt in some aspects but highly credulous in others. Why you are in thrall to this guy is perplexing.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:18:03 AM by Gordon »

floo

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25869 on: January 18, 2018, 09:26:24 AM »
The most fundamental argument comes from a much more gifted person than I am:

If (as many atheists claim) the world really boils down to a complex set of chemical and physical processes then love, beauty, meaning and even truth itself are merely illusions of a mechanical mind: “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”


As I have asked many times before, if god exists why makes its presence a matter of faith?

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25870 on: January 18, 2018, 10:16:09 AM »
As I have asked many times before, if god exists why makes its presence a matter of faith?
There are lots of questions to which we do not know the answer,
but our freedom to conceive of these questions and ask them does give an insight into to our spiritual nature.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25871 on: January 18, 2018, 10:19:15 AM »
There are lots of questions to which we do not know the answer,
but our freedom to conceive of these questions and ask them does give an insight into to our spiritual nature.

No.

If we do not know the answer, then we do not know, and need to find real evidence, not just make up an answer we like.

Which is what you have done.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25872 on: January 18, 2018, 10:22:33 AM »
Nice to see the high priest of incredulity given an airing again (Lewis) - mechanical minds and mindless atoms!   I wonder why there is never a supernatural solution to these issues?  Here we are -  the mind and consciousness and thinking are all explained supernaturally by a magical mystery tour of sweet FA.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25873 on: January 18, 2018, 10:38:20 AM »
Nice to see the high priest of incredulity given an airing again (Lewis) - mechanical minds and mindless atoms!   I wonder why there is never a supernatural solution to these issues?  Here we are -  the mind and consciousness and thinking are all explained supernaturally by a magical mystery tour of sweet FA.
Unfortunately there is at present no scientific solution to consciousness either. Just a bit of science and the rest filled by scientism or reduced by the dead Procrustean hand of reductionism.

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #25874 on: January 18, 2018, 10:45:52 AM »
Unfortunately there is at present no scientific solution to consciousness either. Just a bit of science and the rest filled by scientism or reduced by the dead Procrustean hand of reductionism.

It is not yet understood.

So what? lots of things are like this, and have been like this.

Something being unknown is not the problem. It's daft people who make up answers!
I see gullible people, everywhere!