Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Awareness may well be linked to brain activity, but not defined by it.  Conscious perception is not just another manifestation of hugely complex electrical activity in the brain - it is awareness of this activity.

I think you're trying to imply here, is that awareness is awareness of awareness; which is rather silly

[Alan Burns]

'Proof' is neither here nor there of course, strictly speaking, it is what the evidence points to that we have to consider and there is no evidence suggesting that eagles, for instance, lack conscious perception.  If this phenomenon were lacking in eagles we would be sure to observe the ramifications of that deficit in their behaviours.  A blindsighted individual is one that has (subconscious) visual perception, but lacks conscious visual perception and the evidence of that condition is manifest in their behaviours - they are blind, as near as damn it. An eagle, afflicted by the same perceptual deficit would not be able to fly and hunt, or at least not nearly so well as one that benefitted from regular conscious vision.

But all you are doing is describing the physical consequences of not having visual data input to the brain.  Of course the eagle will not be able to react in a normal way if there is no visual data coming in.  But is the eagle consciously aware that it is blinded? Or does it just react to the lack of visual input?

[Alan Burns]

I think you're trying to imply here, is that awareness is awareness of awareness; which is rather silly

No - awareness is simply conscious perception of the information in your brain cells.

[torridon]

But all you are doing is describing the physical consequences of not having visual data input to the brain.  Of course the eagle will not be able to react in a normal way if there is no visual data coming in.  But is the eagle consciously aware that it is blinded? Or does it just not react to the visual input?

No that is wrong, you haven't understood the post.  In blindsightedness there is visual data input to the brain, but in this condition the 'data' does not make it into consciousness.  If eagles were effectively running on blindsight, or similar, then their behaviours would betray that, they would not be able to fly and swoop and hunt with such awesome facility.  Their behaviour would be characteristic of one afflicted by blindsight, ie lacking conscious perception.

[Enki]

Alan,

The evidence is that we comprise something more than what physically deterministic material reactions alone can ever produce.

I don't agree with you. However, that's not evidence, that's a belief. If not, list the evidence that you speak of.

I do not know how the soul works or how it interacts with our physical brain.

And, moreover, no evidence that this 'soul' of yours actually exists.

I just know beyond doubt that my conscious awareness and free will are not definable in physical terms.

Good for you. However a simple assertion, backed up by nothing at all, is simply a simple assertion, which carries no weight whatever.

So, in the light of your total lack of evidence, and your total dependence on the importance of your particular assertions, I find no reason to change my view.

[SusanDoris]

Can you please stop comparing externally perceived animal reactions to the internal conscious perception of human beings.  They are not the same thing.  Our conscious perception is not defined by our external reactions - it occurs internally as awareness without the need for reaction.

I don't know how you have the audacity to ask torridon to stop comparing animal behaviour with other animal behaviour. We are 100% animals. We have a slightly more advamced brain which enables us to use our imaginations and to think in the abstract, but that's it.

[wigginhall]

It's pointless.   Alan has to stick to his various mantras, and his faith acts as a rampart, which repels rational argument and evidence.   You could show him someone having a brain scan, and demonstrating how thinking is manifest in the brain, and he would trot out the usual platitudes. 

[Alan Burns]

No that is wrong, you haven't understood the post.  In blindsightedness there is visual data input to the brain, but in this condition the 'data' does not make it into consciousness.  If eagles were effectively running on blindsight, or similar, then their behaviours would betray that, they would not be able to fly and swoop and hunt with such awesome facility.  Their behaviour would be characteristic of one afflicted by blindsight, ie lacking conscious perception.

I just saw blindsightedness as a manifestation of the visual data not getting through to the required part of the brain in order to produce the expected reaction.  In this area we may be on similar ground initially, but when it does get through to the correct part of the brain, does it get processed to generate a reaction, or does it get consciously perceived?  Only the eagle could tell us that, but it does not have the ability to do this.

[Gordon]

The evidence is that we comprise something more than what physically deterministic material reactions alone can ever produce.  I do not know how the soul works or how it interacts with our physical brain. I just know beyond doubt that my conscious awareness and free will are not definable in physical terms.

You don't 'know beyond doubt': you just think that you do because it is part of a narrative you've created for your own consumption.

[Alan Burns]

It's pointless.   Alan has to stick to his various mantras, and his faith acts as a rampart, which repels rational argument and evidence.   You could show him someone having a brain scan, and demonstrating how thinking is manifest in the brain, and he would trot out the usual platitudes.

A brain scan simply makes us aware that there is physical activity going on in the brain.  We perceive this physical activity on the scan through our own brain and conscious awareness, but what is there to consciously perceive it in the the brain being scanned?

[ProfessorDavey]

A brain scan simply makes us aware that there is physical activity going on in the brain.  We perceive this physical activity on the scan through our own brain and conscious awareness, but what is there to consciously perceive it in the the brain being scanned?

For crying out loud Alan - consciousness is merely a manifestation of complex brain activity - a term we use to describe that complex brain activity - no more, no less.

[torridon]

I just saw blindsightedness as a manifestation of the visual data not getting through to the required part of the brain in order to produce the expected reaction.  In this area we may be on similar ground initially, but when it does get through to the correct part of the brain, does it get processed to generate a reaction, or does it get consciously perceived?  Only the eagle could tell us that, but it does not have the ability to do this.

In blindsight, visual data is perceived subconsciously but not consciously, that is the nature of the condition. Eagles clearly cannot tell us anything but it would be pretty obvious if their inner experience of vision were so compromised.  Another analogue to consider is sleepwalking - this is another case where individuals are running on subconscious perception rather than conscious perception.  If eagles' inner perception were akin to that of a sleepwalker I think that would manifest as a pretty obvious deficit in their behaviour.

[Alan Burns]

For crying out loud Alan - consciousness is merely a manifestation of complex brain activity - a term we use to describe that complex brain activity - no more, no less.

Complex brain activity is just complex brain activity.  It in itself does not define conscious awareness.  It is just an aspect of conscious awareness, but it does not imply a complete definition.  Conscious awareness requires perception of brain activity, not just the brain activity alone.

[Gordon]

Conscious awareness requires perception of brain activity, not just the brain activity alone.

If 'conscious awareness' is just a form of brain activity then your argument is circular.

[Alan Burns]

In blindsight, visual data is perceived subconsciously but not consciously, that is the nature of the condition. Eagles clearly cannot tell us anything but it would be pretty obvious if their inner experience of vision were so compromised.  Another analogue to consider is sleepwalking - this is another case where individuals are running on subconscious perception rather than conscious perception.  If eagles' inner perception were akin to that of a sleepwalker I think that would manifest as a pretty obvious deficit in their behaviour.

Sleepwalking and possibly hypnosis show that the human body can still physically function when our conscious awareness is temporarily turned off - which is more evidence that our conscious perception is an additional attribute in humans that is not required for normal animal like behaviour.

[Alan Burns]

If 'conscious awareness' is just a form of brain activity then your argument is circular.

It is not a form of brain activity - it is perception of brain activity.  The conscious perceiver is simply the recipient of information - nothing circular about this.

[ippy]

Sleepwalking and possibly hypnosis show that the human body can still physically function when our conscious awareness is temporarily turned off - which is more evidence that our conscious perception is an additional attribute in humans that is not required for normal animal like behaviour.

Let's face it Alan, you can't nail it, you haven't got one piece of supportable evidence for any of your baseless, obtuse ideas.

You're a poor old sod Alan, Regards ippy

[torridon]

Sleepwalking and possibly hypnosis show that the human body can still physically function when our conscious awareness is temporarily turned off - which is more evidence that our conscious perception is an additional attribute in humans that is not required for normal animal like behaviour.

Hypnosis is not unique to humans, similar catatonic mind states are widespread in nature; ever caught a rabbit in your headlights and seen it freeze ? something similar going on there. But much more widespread than hypnosis is sleep, this is pretty universal through nature, periods of waking  and sleeping broadly correspond to periods of consciousness and unconsciousness, and its not just humans that sleep.

[Gordon]

It is not a form of brain activity - it is perception of brain activity.  The conscious perceiver is simply the recipient of information - nothing circular about this.

Stop being silly: try perceiving anything without a functioning brain and let us know how you get on.

[Enki]

Sleepwalking and possibly hypnosis show that the human body can still physically function when our conscious awareness is temporarily turned off - which is more evidence that our conscious perception is an additional attribute in humans that is not required for normal animal like behaviour.

Oh dear, Alan. By your own weird standards, you've just suggested that dogs can have their own conscious perception turned off too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2BgjH_CtIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-0dzKH1Rfs

[floo]

Sleepwalking and possibly hypnosis show that the human body can still physically function when our conscious awareness is temporarily turned off - which is more evidence that our conscious perception is an additional attribute in humans that is not required for normal animal like behaviour.

We are an animal species.

[Alan Burns]

Stop being silly: try perceiving anything without a functioning brain and let us know how you get on.

The brain function is part of the perceiving process, gathering information into a suitable place and format for it to be consciously perceived.

[torridon]

The brain function is part of the perceiving process, gathering information into a suitable place and format for it to be consciously perceived.

Perception consists of gathering information so it can be perceived.

You don't understand the circularity in that ?

[Alan Burns]

Oh dear, Alan. By your own weird standards, you've just suggested that dogs can have their own conscious perception turned off too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2BgjH_CtIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-0dzKH1Rfs

Being convulsed by uncontrollable reactions is not the same as human sleepwalking.  Humans who sleepwalk are still in control of balance and are aware of sighted objects.

[Alan Burns]

Perception consists of gathering information so it can be perceived.

You don't understand the circularity in that ?

my correction:
Perception requires the gathering of information so it can be perceived