Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3736217 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26000 on: January 21, 2018, 09:40:17 AM »
Bizarre thinking, that.  Why would a god create chaos in the first place, so that it has to be put right by later manipulation.  Why not just get things right in the first place ?

Do you not think it is logical to use tools, materials and intelligence to facilitate the act of creation?  To expect things to just appear in a pre created state is bizarre.
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Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26001 on: January 21, 2018, 09:53:36 AM »
Do you not think it is logical to use tools, materials and intelligence to facilitate the act of creation?  To expect things to just appear in a pre created state is bizarre.

Thinking as a human, yes, that comes naturally.  But if I were a god, wishing to create order, I would not create chaos.  I would create order.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26002 on: January 21, 2018, 09:57:56 AM »
Thinking as a human, yes, that comes naturally.  But if I were a god, wishing to create order, I would not create chaos.  I would create order.
But perhaps chaos is the initial, inevitable state before order can be brought into existence.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26003 on: January 21, 2018, 10:24:42 AM »
But perhaps chaos is the initial, inevitable state before order can be brought into existence.

It is very sad AB that you can't see how indoctrinated you are by the dogma fed to you by the flipping RCC! ::)

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26004 on: January 21, 2018, 10:34:36 AM »
Wow, this sounds very like the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy - a cowboy fires randomly into the side of a barn, and then draws a target round some of the bullet-holes, as if they were intended.

So Alan takes apparent chaos plus order in the universe, and says, see this is what God intended all along.   All that entropy stuff, he was just joshing you.
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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26005 on: January 21, 2018, 11:50:35 AM »
Thinking as a human, yes, that comes naturally.  But if I were a god, wishing to create order, I would not create chaos.  I would create order.
What a boring God that would be.  If the God is one of infinite potential, mutability is the way to go.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26006 on: January 21, 2018, 12:37:38 PM »
What a boring God that would be.  If the God is one of infinite potential, mutability is the way to go.

To be honest, I find Alan's God boring anyway. For instance, what are we actually supposed to do in this Heaven to stop boredom from setting in?
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26007 on: January 21, 2018, 02:34:45 PM »
Wow, this sounds very like the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy - a cowboy fires randomly into the side of a barn, and then draws a target round some of the bullet-holes, as if they were intended.

So Alan takes apparent chaos plus order in the universe, and says, see this is what God intended all along.   All that entropy stuff, he was just joshing you.

Alan, probably thinks you're Lucifer Wiggs, the man's impenetrable.

Regards ippy

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26008 on: January 21, 2018, 03:00:08 PM »
To be honest, I find Alan's God boring anyway. For instance, what are we actually supposed to do in this Heaven to stop boredom from setting in?
It's difficult to know what Alan's God is or what his Heaven is.  The Old Testament God seemed to be a 'carrot and stick' God who kept things pretty lively.  The Jesus God seemed to be a God of Power or potential, which presumably is capable of infinite manifestations.  The 'Heaven within' is, perhaps, a blissful or joyful state of being which, when discovered, is able to be expressed joyfully towards the external.  Boredom is when the fidgety mind can't get enough entertainment from the external.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26009 on: January 21, 2018, 03:06:57 PM »
Alan, probably thinks you're Lucifer Wiggs, the man's impenetrable.

Regards ippy

Yeah but, Ippolyltus, you can see how cunning God is.  He leaves tons of disorder around, and also some order.   So humans are created, and they try to repair the disorder and understand it all.   Think of a freezer full of food, which you unplug, and all the food goes nasty.  Disorder.   But a bloke comes along, empties out the nasty stuff, and plugs the freezer back in.   Yay!  God triumphs.   (Borrowed from Brian Cox).   
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26010 on: January 21, 2018, 03:23:39 PM »
To be honest, I find Alan's God boring anyway. For instance, what are we actually supposed to do in this Heaven to stop boredom from setting in?

We read through the Popular Compendium of Popular Fallacies, with copious examples.   Then we construct long posts trying to use these fallacies, and spot other people's.   The winner gets to go to sleep.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26011 on: January 21, 2018, 04:05:21 PM »
Quote
But you try to resolve it by assuming a series of unguided random mutations can create this unfathomable complexity which comprises our human awareness.

I’ve exited this mb (at least pending anyone at least attempting an argument worthy of the name for “God” etc) but I was reading something from Nicholas Taleb’s “Antifragile” on a flight home last night (Venice for a short break since you ask – very nice indeed thanks) that seems relevant.

Alan’s ever-more convoluted schtick starts with the assertion that “conscious awareness” could not have arisen naturally (though I’ve no idea why he thinks that, and nor it seems has he – the best he has seems to be, “laptops can’t do it…er, neither therefore could vastly more complex humans” or something) and proceeds with ever more baroque constructions, including:

- consciousness is not “fully defined”, therefore it can’t be natural (although that’s not a problem it seems for, say, not fully defined gravity occurring naturally);

- there’s a little man at the controls called a “soul” that he can’t define at all, that has no discernible evidence to locate it, that apparently (and bizarrely) in some way functions neither deterministically nor randomly, and that has no explanation whatever of its working methods;

- this little man we’re also told does its mysterious thing “outside of nature”, though what “outside of nature” would even mean is left blank;

- despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the little man is needed only though to “interact” with people but not with other species, even it seems when those species demonstrate higher levels of cognitive awareness than some people can;

-  when all else fails, he'll resort to the circularity of asserting what this god supposedly thinks or wants in response to questions about why anyone should think “He” exists at all. 

So to the Taleb. Alan’s position is essentially solipsistic – the whole universe was designed to produce us as its outcome, so the chances of that happening by chance are like really slim (ie, a mish-mash of the reference point error, personal incredulity and a failure to grasp the significance of the anthropic principle). As Taleb puts it though (page 67):

Nature does not find its members very helpful after their reproductive abilities are depleted (except perhaps in special situations in which animals live in groups, such as the need for grandmothers in the human and elephant domains to assist others in preparing offspring to take charge). Nature prefers to let the game continue at the informational level, the genetic code. So organisms need to die for nature to be antifragile – nature is opportunistic, ruthless, and selfish.”

No doubt he’ll respond (if at all) with his standard argument from consequences fallacy – he doesn’t like the sound of that, therefore…erm…it can’t be true – but there it is nonetheless.

Oh well.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 04:15:18 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26012 on: January 21, 2018, 04:31:46 PM »
I’ve exited this mb (at least pending anyone at least attempting an argument worthy of the name for “God” etc) but I was reading something from Nicholas Taleb’s “Antifragile” on a flight home last night (Venice for a short break since you ask – very nice indeed thanks) that seems relevant.

Alan’s ever-more convoluted schtick starts with the assertion that “conscious awareness” could not have arisen naturally (though I’ve no idea why he thinks that, and nor it seems has he – the best he has seems to be, “laptops can’t do it…er, neither therefore could vastly more complex humans” or something) and proceeds with ever more baroque constructions, including:

- consciousness is not “fully defined”, therefore it can’t be natural (although that’s not a problem it seems for, say, not fully defined gravity occurring naturally);

- there’s a little man at the controls called a “soul” that he can’t define at all, that has no discernible evidence to locate it, that apparently (and bizarrely) in some way functions neither deterministically nor randomly, and that has no explanation whatever of its working methods;

- this little man we’re also told does its mysterious thing “outside of nature”, though what “outside of nature” would even mean is left blank;

- despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the little man is needed only though to “interact” with people but not with other species, even it seems when those species demonstrate higher levels of cognitive awareness than some people can;

-  when all else fails, he'll resort to the circularity of asserting what this god supposedly thinks or wants in response to questions about why anyone should think “He” exists at all. 

So to the Taleb. Alan’s position is essentially solipsistic – the whole universe was designed to produce us as its outcome, so the chances of that happening by chance are like really slim (ie, a mish-mash of the reference point error, personal incredulity and a failure to grasp the significance of the anthropic principle). As Taleb puts it though (page 67):

Nature does not find its members very helpful after their reproductive abilities are depleted (except perhaps in special situations in which animals live in groups, such as the need for grandmothers in the human and elephant domains to assist others in preparing offspring to take charge). Nature prefers to let the game continue at the informational level, the genetic code. So organisms need to die for nature to be antifragile – nature is opportunistic, ruthless, and selfish.”

No doubt he’ll respond (if at all) with his standard argument from consequences fallacy – he doesn’t like the sound of that, therefore…erm…it can’t be true – but there it is nonetheless.

Oh well.

Just after world war 2, I used to read lots of the bumper fun books for boys about science, stories of adventure, jokes, I'm still using that one, all sorts including one about how the body works with cut away drawings of our insides, the cut away drawing of the head definitely had a a little man driving at all of the controls etc, do you mean to tell me that they had it wrong, I hope you realise you've put me into a similar position to,,,,,, now wait a minute,,,,, now ,,,,,,who was it????????

Anyway you've left me so very confused now, you've really spoiled those books for me now, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I'm not playing this game any more, wasn't that Volet Elizabeth, well something like that?

Regards ippy
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 10:43:32 PM by ippy »

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26013 on: January 21, 2018, 04:56:53 PM »
Yeah but, Ippolyltus, you can see how cunning God is.  He leaves tons of disorder around, and also some order.   So humans are created, and they try to repair the disorder and understand it all.   Think of a freezer full of food, which you unplug, and all the food goes nasty.  Disorder.   But a bloke comes along, empties out the nasty stuff, and plugs the freezer back in.   Yay!  God triumphs.   (Borrowed from Brian Cox).

You know Wiggs, I never matriculated, they can't touch you for now it anyway, so I wouldn't know as much about it as your good self, however I think I've got it now, but I don't think your explanation will be doing much good where it's really needed.

Regards ippy

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26014 on: January 21, 2018, 05:06:08 PM »
We read through the Popular Compendium of Popular Fallacies, with copious examples.   Then we construct long posts trying to use these fallacies, and spot other people's.   The winner gets to go to sleep.

That sounds more like Hell to me, except for the winner, of course. :)
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26015 on: January 22, 2018, 06:39:08 AM »
It is really cheering to read more interesting posts to start off Monday morning.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26016 on: January 22, 2018, 07:26:18 AM »
The fact that you are able to draw any conscious conclusion from your relationship with the dog is through your divine gifts of perception and freedom to think, which the unguided, purposeless forces of nature could never give you.

What makes you think that ?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26017 on: January 22, 2018, 09:53:23 AM »
I’ve exited this mb (at least pending anyone at least attempting an argument worthy of the name for “God” etc) but I was reading something from Nicholas Taleb’s “Antifragile” ........
So, Blue, you (and Nicholas Taleb) have aptly demonstrated your conscious abilities to work out possible explanations about life, the universe and everything.  In doing so can you just consider what drives this process?  Do you really think all this can done by the physically pre determined reactions to past events occurring in your sub conscious before you are aware of them?  And would you still claim that my saying this is just personal incredulity?  Or can I justly accuse you of extreme personal optimism in assuming the unguided, uncontrollable forces of nature can do all this?

Surely you have shown that you are in control - your conscious self.  But what drives this control - the controller of course!
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26018 on: January 22, 2018, 10:22:34 AM »
So, Blue, you (and Nicholas Taleb) have aptly demonstrated your conscious abilities to work out possible explanations about life, the universe and everything.  In doing so can you just consider what drives this process?  Do you really think all this can done by the physically pre determined reactions to past events occurring in your sub conscious before you are aware of them?  And would you still claim that my saying this is just personal incredulity?  Or can I justly accuse you of extreme personal optimism in assuming the unguided, uncontrollable forces of nature can do all this?

Surely you have shown that you are in control - your conscious self.  But what drives this control - the controller of course!

But you haven't been able to show how choice works or how motivation arises in this 'controller'.  Explaining these things through the paradigm of cause and effect makes sense; your rationale has no logic.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26019 on: January 22, 2018, 10:51:53 AM »
But you haven't been able to show how choice works or how motivation arises in this 'controller'.  Explaining these things through the paradigm of cause and effect makes sense; your rationale has no logic.
It only makes sense when you can accept the existence of your conscious willpower and its ability to drive your conscious thought processes,
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26020 on: January 22, 2018, 10:58:33 AM »
It only makes sense when you can accept the existence of your conscious willpower and its ability to drive your conscious thought processes,

No it doesn't.  You've been asked countless times for a rationale explaining how it could work, but you haven't been able to come up with one.  The only way to make sense of volition and choice is through the paradigm of cause and effect. All you have by contrast is a magic black box it would seem.  No comparison.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26021 on: January 22, 2018, 11:08:48 AM »
No it doesn't.  You've been asked countless times for a rationale explaining how it could work, but you haven't been able to come up with one.  The only way to make sense of volition and choice is through the paradigm of cause and effect. All you have by contrast is a magic black box it would seem.  No comparison.

But to try to explain it entirely by physical cause and effect removes any freedom to control.  I know that I do not have an explanation for how the willpower of the human soul can interact to give us conscious control, but you and I and everyone on this forum has produced evidence that we do have consciously driven control.  And yes, there is cause and effect, the cause being the conscious will of the human soul.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26022 on: January 22, 2018, 11:24:46 AM »
But to try to explain it entirely by physical cause and effect removes any freedom to control.  I know that I do not have an explanation for how the willpower of the human soul can interact to give us conscious control, but you and I and everyone on this forum has produced evidence that we do have consciously driven control.  And yes, there is cause and effect, the cause being the conscious will of the human soul.

The soul being another term for the brain! ::)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26023 on: January 22, 2018, 11:34:13 AM »
Me:

Quote
So to the Taleb. Alan’s position is essentially solipsistic – the whole universe was designed to produce us as its outcome, so the chances of that happening by chance are like really slim (ie, a mish-mash of the reference point error, personal incredulity and a failure to grasp the significance of the anthropic principle). As Taleb puts it though (page 67):

Nature does not find its members very helpful after their reproductive abilities are depleted (except perhaps in special situations in which animals live in groups, such as the need for grandmothers in the human and elephant domains to assist others in preparing offspring to take charge). Nature prefers to let the game continue at the informational level, the genetic code. So organisms need to die for nature to be antifragile – nature is opportunistic, ruthless, and selfish.

No doubt he’ll respond (if at all) with his standard argument from consequences fallacy – he doesn’t like the sound of that, therefore…erm…it can’t be true – but there it is nonetheless.

“Crashes and” Burns:

Quote
So, Blue, you (and Nicholas Taleb) have aptly demonstrated your conscious abilities to work out possible explanations about life, the universe and everything.  In doing so can you just consider what drives this process?  Do you really think all this can done by the physically pre determined reactions to past events occurring in your sub conscious before you are aware of them?  And would you still claim that my saying this is just personal incredulity?  Or can I justly accuse you of extreme personal optimism in assuming the unguided, uncontrollable forces of nature can do all this?

Surely you have shown that you are in control - your conscious self.  But what drives this control - the controller of course.

Truly I have the power of prophecy!

Perhaps Alan if you at least tried to grasp the circularity of “the odds of ending up with us by chance are impossibly long” and “God always intended us to be here as part of His plan” you’d at least have some inkling of where you keep going wrong. And that’s why you can’t “justly accuse” me at all – had an entirely different self-aware species emerged instead, there’d no doubt be some (not very bright) members of it also asking, “what are the chances eh? See, there must have been a creator to make it so.” Whence then any "optimism"?

Start bottom up (by following the evidence) rather than top down (by assuming your conclusions) and then – finally – you might have some hope at least of being educated.

I won't hold my breath though.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26024 on: January 22, 2018, 11:42:45 AM »
But to try to explain it entirely by physical cause and effect removes any freedom to control.  I know that I do not have an explanation for how the willpower of the human soul can interact to give us conscious control, but you and I and everyone on this forum has produced evidence that we do have consciously driven control.  And yes, there is cause and effect, the cause being the conscious will of the human soul.

You really ought to know better by now, this superficial take on things has been debunked and exposed as shallow so many times already.

It is no good claiming the conscious will of the human soul as being part of cause and effect whilst simultaneously denying the same and refusing to give any rationale for how souls make choices in a way that is different to all other things.

It is no good pretending that posts on this forum are evidence of consciously driven control as by now you should have some understanding of the subtleties of conscious mind and how minds arrive at decisions.  Conscious mind cannot be the instigator of choice given it is in fact the last link in the chain of events that ends in awareness of a choice having been made.

You need to get over the 'freedom to control'.  Firstly what freedom is there if we cannot choose our desires.  Secondly, that feeling of control must be, like so many other things, something of an illusion.  We feel like we are conscious agents experiencing direct reality in real time.  We know this is not really true now. Our awareness is a subjective construction of mind which is subject to time lag and is also coloured by our biases and expectations.  We feel like we are solid, but again it is an illusion, we are really mostly empty space. We feel like we move in a static Euclidian space, but since Einstein, we know that is wrong, with both space and time being relative. We feel like we are human, but in fact by cell count we mostly bacterial and viral colonies build around human scaffolding.  Many of our intuitions have been demonstrated to be false, so what are we supposed to do, pretend that we haven't learned these things ?