Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You can dress it up all you want but if everybody (except Jesus who was god) is a sinner and "hopelessly lost" - then it can't possibly be a genuine choice that ordinary humans can make - if it were, there would be some who made the other choice; some people who were not lost and didn't need forgiveness.

Whether we can make the right choice in a fallen environment is a question, institutional behaviour and all that.

We are not hopelessly lost. We have Jesus. There is no mainstream denomination that doesn't follow the line that any impediment has been sorted by Jesus. The way to God is now open and, as it says biblically He IS the way.

You are insisting on things just being hopelessly lost and being innocently hopelessly lost. That is not the case. The way is now open to God. Now your point is valid and there is a choice to turn to God or not turn and as you say some apparently do and some don't.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The Bible is so sufficiently vague, internally contradictory and ambiguous that you can pretty much assert it to mean whatever you want it to mean. Fred Phelps and Desmond Tutu alike each think they have biblical authority for their (very different) positions.   

Which is probably why it points to something beyond itself.

[Alan Burns]

We are sinners of our own account that is clear throughout the bible and not just one book
from where the not universal doctrine of original sin comes. We can please God by turning to him. Acts in the OT were pleasing to God. Though we cannot attain salvation by Good works that is no barrier to God since we have Jesus Christ to whom we have to turn to.

Absolute morality is edenic namely walking with God in an environment where everything is in accordance with God. The world is not like that and that has a history. That is reflected in doctrinal formulations such as original sin, imputed sin etc.

Your version leaves people completely innocent. That might be your belief but it is not the biblical belief.

This reminds me of last Sunday's Gospel reading which contained the words: "Repent and believe the Good News".

In order to find God, we first need to humbly accept that we all have our human weaknesses and failings.  For example, the human ideology which assumes that humans are the amazing consequence of nothing but the random, unguided events in nature and that evil does not exist.

[Alan Burns]

So once again, you've totally ignored the substance of the argument I presented and just posted a silly, bland, inane, and simplistic assertion that is totally contradicted by logic.

How does randomness (not predetermined) make you free?

ETA: And if your choices are not determined by who you are and the circumstances you are in, what is it that you think you are setting free?

The free spirit which is you.

[Stranger]

Whether we can make the right choice in a fallen environment is a question, institutional behaviour and all that.

It doesn't really matter whether it's the environment, our nature, a combination, or any other reason; if there is a 100% failure, it can't be a genuine individual choice. It is therefore unjust to judge us for it and absurd to offer forgiveness for it - especially if said forgiveness comes with the condition of belief in this absurdity. Doubly so, in the absence of even a hint of real evidence or sensible argument that supports it.

It's an utterly absurd superstition.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

No choice is "free" in the sense you intend it because that would mean that it's random, chaotic. The only freedom is the colloquial sense of being "free" to choose either tea or coffee.

But then again, you know that already don't you.
 

So was my choice to accept Jesus as my Saviour just a pre determined event over which I had no control?

[Nearly Sane]

So was my choice to accept Jesus as my Saviour just a pre determined event over which I had no control?

You've said this is the case. You have said you had no choice  but to believe. Are you calling yourself a liar?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It doesn't really matter whether it's the environment, our nature, a combination, or any other reason; if there is a 100% failure, it can't be a genuine individual choice. It is therefore unjust to judge us for it and absurd to offer forgiveness for it - especially if said forgiveness comes with the condition of belief in this absurdity. Doubly so, in the absence of even a hint of real evidence or sensible argument that supports it.

It's an utterly absurd superstition.

Forgiveness comes with turning to God. Eden suggests a time when Man was in intimate communion with God, that is what is lost. How was it lost? person or persons unknown, That is why I bring up subsequent institutional behaviour. If you realise you have behaved institutionally do you not take responsibility for it? Do you continue with it?
You keep ignoring part two. We have the choice to turn to God and apparently some do and some don't.
Will you turn to God as others have or will you not...as others have?

[Stranger]

The free spirit which is you.

Are you going to address the logic or just go on posting these silly, bland, inane and meaningless statements?

If it's the "free spirit" that makes the choice - that is what the logic apples to. Whatever you call the final decision making entity and no matter what magical realm you think it resides in, the logic applies.

Yet again: If a completely exhaustive list of absolutely every reason for a choice, in complete and exact detail, does not fully define exactly one choice, then there can be no reasons left to choose between the alternatives and something that happens for no reason is random.

Why are you so afraid of facing this head-on and saying why you think it's wrong?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Whether we can make the right choice in a fallen environment is a question, institutional behaviour and all that.

We are not hopelessly lost. We have Jesus. There is no mainstream denomination that doesn't follow the line that any impediment has been sorted by Jesus. The way to God is now open and, as it says biblically He IS the way.

You are insisting on things just being hopelessly lost and being innocently hopelessly lost. That is not the case. The way is now open to God. Now your point is valid and there is a choice to turn to God or not turn and as you say some apparently do and some don't.

In which again Vlad slides seamlessly from "this is what the Bible says" to, "this is true" with no connecting logic of any kind. 

[Stranger]

So was my choice to accept Jesus as my Saviour just a pre determined event over which I had no control?

No, it was a predetermined choice over which you had complete control.

You can't externalize everything - if you do, there is nothing left to make a choice, nothing left to be you. You are part of reality (note I didn't say physical reality) - the processes that produce your choices (deterministic or with random elements) are you.

[Stranger]

Forgiveness comes with turning to God.

Again - if there is 100% failure, then there is no genuine choice, therefore no just reason for condemnation, and therefore no reason  to need forgiveness.

A 100% failure isn't a choice, it's a design flaw.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Which is probably why it points to something beyond itself.

Very funny.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Again - if there is 100% failure, then there is no genuine choice, therefore no just reason for condemnation, and therefore no reason  to need forgiveness.

A 100% failure isn't a choice, it's a design flaw.

No, it's a choice. Either stick with God or walk away.
Again you are ignoring my point about institutional behaviour. Again if you find yourself behaving institutionally do you take responsibility? turn away from it?

[bluehillside Retd.]

No, it's a choice. Either stick with God or walk away.

Thereby ignoring the necessary prior choice of deciding whether or not to accept the assertions of those who claim this choice to be a real one rather than just a statement of personal faith...

(...many other statement of personal faith are available.)

[Gordon]

So was my choice to accept Jesus as my Saviour just a pre determined event over which I had no control?

Probably: you seem predisposed to be susceptible to ancient religious superstitions.

Don't despair though: a bit of serious thinking on the illogical aspects of your current position, as pointed out to you frequently in this wee Forum, could resolve your problem.

[Stranger]

No, it's a choice. Either stick with God or walk away.

You are ignoring the point and distorting the choice presented by (at least the majority of Christians). If there was a real choice some people would not need to turn to god for forgiveness.

Again you are ignoring my point about institutional behaviour. Again if you find yourself behaving institutionally do you take responsibility? turn away from it?

The same point applies.

You can't, with anything like fairness and justice, condemn 100% of the people and require them all to seek forgiveness.

This, of course, is just one absurdity amongst many and is quite apart from the total absence of even the hint of a morsel of evidence or reasoning to suggest that any of this is actually true.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Thereby ignoring the necessary prior choice of deciding whether or not to accept the assertions of those who claim this choice to be a real one rather than just a statement of personal faith...

Not sure what you mean here. After all this is not merely a matter of intellectual assent or I suppose assertion but an encounter with God.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are ignoring the point and distorting the choice presented by (at least the majority of Christians). If there was a real choice some people would not need to turn to god for forgiveness.

The same point applies.

You can't, with anything like fairness and justice, condemn 100% of the people and require them all to seek forgiveness.

This, of course, is just one absurdity amongst many and is quite apart from the total absence of even the hint of a morsel of evidence or reasoning to suggest that any of this is actually true.

God is the requirement surely since foregiveness does not exist in a vacuum. If you like, through Jesus the foregiveness is there waiting in the form of God. Will you turn to God as some do or walk away as some do?

[Stranger]

God is the requirement surely since foregiveness does not exist in a vacuum. If you like, through Jesus the foregiveness is there waiting in the form of God.

You are still ignoring the fact that a 100% failure means that there is no genuine choice, therefore no genuine responsibility and no need for forgiveness - at least not from any beeing that values justice and fairness.

Will you turn to God as some do or walk away as some do?

Since I have seen no evidence and no reasoning to persuade me that this is anything but a ridiculous, superstitious fantasy, riddled with absurdity and contradictions, I will be doing neither.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Stranger,

You can't, with anything like fairness and justice, condemn 100% of the people and require them all to seek forgiveness.

But Vlad's god (as Christopher Hitchens used to say) "created us sick and commanded us to be well", only "He" took the trouble first to make "well" impossible to achieve.

Nice eh?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are still ignoring the fact that a 100% failure means that there is no genuine choice, therefore no genuine responsibility and no need for forgiveness - at least not from any beeing that values justice and fairness.

A choice made is a genuine choice. In an ycase if you are behaving a la the institution in this case the human race and you recognise that the behaviour is wrong does one take responsibility for it....it seems you see no need. In our context that boils down to God or no God some genuinely choose to go with God, some don't and go with themselves which is what the original problem was.

Saying no need for foregiveness effectively means no need for God and you recapitulate the Adam scenario.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Stranger,

But Vlad's god (as Christopher Hitchens used to say) "created us sick and commanded us to be well", only "He" took the trouble first to make "well" impossible to achieve.

Nice eh?

Not really since Hitchins too conveniently forgot about Christ in all of this. Saving ourselves is the equivalent of not needing to bother with God.

[Stranger]

Saying no need for foregiveness effectively means no need for God and you recapitulate the Adam scenario.

A universal need for forgiveness for the 'crime' of being human and therefore imperfect - in other words the 'crime' of being the way god created us, means that said god is simply unfair and unjust.

And, as I said, there is no hint of evidence or iota of reasoning to support this daft, self-contradictory superstition, anyway.

[Stranger]

Not really since Hitchins too conveniently forgot about Christ in all of this. Saving ourselves is the equivalent of not needing to bother with God.

Piffle. God created us sick, commanded wellness and then offered a sick note to excuse our sickness, if and only if we believed this nonsense, is not an improvement.