Searching for GOD...

[BeRational]

But I can't ignore the evidence I see before my eyes of a person able to walk unaided after being confined to a wheelchair for over two years

What caused the healing, and how do you know?

[Stranger]

Are you ignoring the witness testimony of the thousands of people who claim they are being abducted by aliens on a regular basis ?

But I can't ignore the evidence I see before my eyes of a person able to walk unaided after being confined to a wheelchair for over two years

People make unexpected recoveries, Alan - it's not all that unusual. Why are you ignoring the evidence of the first-hand accounts of alien abductions?

[Enki]

If you want absolute proof for the immortality of the human soul you will no doubt get it when your physical body dies.

Or not of course.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But I can't ignore the evidence I see before my eyes of a person able to walk unaided after being confined to a wheelchair for over two years

What do you think that to be evidence of, and why?

[torridon]

But I can't ignore the evidence I see before my eyes of a person able to walk unaided after being confined to a wheelchair for over two years

So ?  You are just demonstrating your willingness to be selective rather than even handed. How many people have prayed for a miracle and not had one ?  How many amputees come back from Lourdes with regrown limbs ?  The statistics show that the healing power of prayer is at best equivalent to a placebo effect, so the honest conclusion is that it is the power of belief that is at work here.

[Walter]

But I can't ignore the evidence I see before my eyes of a person able to walk unaided after being confined to a wheelchair for over two years

sounds like you've been duped Alan , you should be ashamed of yourself for being so gullible .


or ....it happens so often in our hospitals that the NHS is planning to do away with Physios because they are no longer needed

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

sounds like you've been duped Alan , you should be ashamed of yourself for being so gullible .

Then perhaps you could give us a taste of your brilliant genius and tell us what really happened.

Until then, it's better to be thought of as ignorant on these matters, than post and confirm it.

[SusanDoris]

Then perhaps you could give us a taste of your brilliant genius and tell us what really happened.

Until then, it's better to be thought of as ignorant on these matters, than post and confirm it.

Do you have details of the person's medical history? Do you know if AB has? Can you rule out absolutely all possibilities of all possible treatments being the cause of the alleged lack of ability to walk an then miraculously becoming an ability to walk? In order to even begin to credit some prayer to some dead person called a saint  you would have to be able to eliminate every single medical and natural means of recovery with details of why and how you were eliminating them.

And then of course  there are the natural means of recovery that may at present be unknown

If you then choose to credit some divine influence, you then have all your work cut out trying to provide even one scrap of objective evidence.

[Nearly Sane]

Then perhaps you could give us a taste of your brilliant genius and tell us what really happened.

Until then, it's better to be thought of as ignorant on these matters, than post and confirm it.

Ah a valiant attempt by SotS to reverse the burden of proof from the person who makes an extraordinary claim minus any methodology to investigate the claim.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sword,

Then perhaps you could give us a taste of your brilliant genius and tell us what really happened.

Until then, it's better to be thought of as ignorant on these matters, than post and confirm it.

You're as logically challenged as ever then I see. It's for the person making the claim to demonstrate it, not for others to falsify it. What "really happened" could be any number of things, but it's not for someone else to identify or validate any one of them. If I told you that a leprechaun sat on the end of my bed last night and sang me a lullaby would it be for you to tell me "what really happened" to cast doubt on the claim?

Why not?   

[Alan Burns]

No matter what evidence is presented for God's existence, there will always be an imaginary scenario derived from human's God given intelligence which attempts to explain how it all could have happened without God, assuming it must have happened this way because God does not exist.

I have often been presented with explanations such as "that's just the way it seems" or "that's what the evidence suggests" when being confronted about the existence of human free will, which to me offers the most convincing evidence for the human soul.  But the evidence offered to suggest that free will is just an illusion is based entirely on the limited human scientific knowledge to date.  If our courts of law were entirely limited to the use of science alone, no one would ever be convicted of a crime because it would be impossible to prove intent.  To discover more about the truth behind our existence we need to look to evidence beyond the bounds of our limited scientific knowledge.

[jeremyp]

But the evidence offered to suggest that free will is just an illusion is based entirely on the limited human scientific knowledge to date.

You mean it is based on what we know, whereas the evidence (if you can call it that) that free will exists is based on what? Your desire to believe mainly.

To discover more about the truth behind our existence we need to look to evidence beyond the bounds of our limited scientific knowledge.

Explain what this evidence is and how you would objectively verify it.

[Alan Burns]

You mean it is based on what we know, whereas the evidence (if you can call it that) that free will exists is based on what? Your desire to believe mainly.
Explain what this evidence is and how you would objectively verify it.

It is not based upon my desire, but my demonstrable ability to consciously interact with this world rather than just react to it.

[jeremyp]

It is not based upon my desire, but my demonstrable ability to consciously interact with this world rather than just react to it.

What's the difference between interacting with the World and reacting to it?

[Alan Burns]

What's the difference between interacting with the World and reacting to it?

If I am interacting with the world, I am consciously manipulating it.
If I am reacting, the world is manipulating me.

[jeremyp]

If I am interacting with the world, I am consciously manipulating it.

What makes you choose to manipulate it in any particular way?

[Stranger]

If I am interacting with the world, I am consciously manipulating it.
If I am reacting, the world is manipulating me.

That's just daft.     

[Alan Burns]

What makes you choose to manipulate it in any particular way?

I first contemplate something I may wish to do, then I consciously choose to do it.

[torridon]

If I am interacting with the world, I am consciously manipulating it.
If I am reacting, the world is manipulating me.

Every encounter is a two way exchange.  By my actions, I change the world; I am also changed by the world.  Have you never gotten cold when the weather worsened ?

[Alan Burns]

Every encounter is a two way exchange.  By my actions, I change the world; I am also changed by the world.  Have you never gotten cold when the weather worsened ?

But if this is a deterministic universe, all encounters are one way reactions.

[torridon]

But if this is a deterministic universe all encounters are one way reactions.

Eh ?

Where do you get that from ? Whatever happened to Newton's action and reaction ?

[Stranger]

But if this is a deterministic universe all encounters are one way reactions.

Utter, unmitigated nonsense. Did you even think about that for a millisecond?

[Alan Burns]

Every encounter is a two way exchange.  By my actions, I change the world; I am also changed by the world.  Have you never gotten cold when the weather worsened ?

If your actions are just inevitable reactions to previous events, you are not changing anything - you just become part of the world's deterministic chain of cause and effect, and any changes are not under your control, but driven entirely by nature.

[jeremyp]

I first contemplate something I may wish to do, then I consciously choose to do it.

What triggers the contemplation?

What causes you to make the choice you eventually make?

Why do you think that, given the exact same set of circumstances, you might choose to do something different?

[jeremyp]

But if this is a deterministic universe, all encounters are one way reactions.

No.

I get hungry. I order a pizza. A man delivers it on a moped, converting some hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide and waste heat as he does. It's a two way interaction between me and the rest of the Universe.