Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3859491 times)

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26625 on: February 27, 2018, 09:57:08 AM »
You know, I've been on message boards for a long time now and every now and again that question comes up. The writer often appears to think it is an original, and therefore exciting, new idea, whereas it mostly elicits a yawn from those who have seen it asked and trounced many times.
SD
it's as if SOTS is saying 'I am so confident I can fly ,watch me jump from this balcony'   

so it's  a pointless exercise really. ::)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26626 on: February 27, 2018, 10:23:36 AM »
Quote
Trouncing questions is an antitheists party piece.
If Sots is committing any fault imho it's directing a question at you.

SotS' "fault" (aside from his complacent and deep irrationalism) is that he didn't have a big tub of Savlon to hand when he got badly burned on his "gullible" mistake a few posts ago. I actually felt quite sorry for him.   
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26627 on: February 27, 2018, 10:31:15 AM »
AB,

OK, so the problem with circular reasoning is lost on you then.
try this example:

For God not to exist, we need to assume -
1. That the universe came into being on its own without divine help
2. That the initial conditions concerning the incredibly fine tuned balance between the rate of expansion of the universe an the force of Gravity (the cosmological constant) which allowed the formation of stars and galaxies was not intentional.
3. That the first living cell came into being through the actions of random, unguided, purposeless events.
4. That a sufficient quantity and quality of beneficial mutations can be generated from random events to drive the process of evolution.
5. That the detrimental effects of harmful mutations could not wipe out life entirely.
6. That every one of the billions of discrete mutations needed to form life as we know it was able to provide sufficient survival advantage in its own right to facilitate natural selection.
7. That molecular activity alone can generate self awareness.
8. That every event needed to write this post was an inevitable consequence of previous events, because we must assume that there can be no such thing as free will.

And we must presume that all these assumptions are true because God does not exist.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26628 on: February 27, 2018, 10:44:51 AM »
try this example:

For God not to exist, we need to assume -
1. That the universe came into being on its own without divine help
2. That the initial conditions concerning the incredibly fine tuned balance between the rate of expansion of the universe an the force of Gravity (the cosmological constant) which allowed the formation of stars and galaxies was not intentional.
3. That the first living cell came into being through the actions of random, unguided, purposeless events.
4. That a sufficient quantity and quality of beneficial mutations can be generated from random events to drive the process of evolution.
5. That the detrimental effects of harmful mutations could not wipe out life entirely.
6. That every one of the billions of discrete mutations needed to form life as we know it was able to provide sufficient survival advantage in its own right to facilitate natural selection.
7. That molecular activity alone can generate self awareness.
8. That every event needed to write this post was an inevitable consequence of previous events, because we must assume that there can be no such thing as free will.

And we must presume that all these assumptions are true because God does not exist.

1.That the universe came into being on its own without divine help

However improbable it might seem that a universe could come into existence without help, it is not so improbable as a universe-creating something coming into existence by itself without help.  Your solution merely hides the problem by positting an even bigger one in its place.

2 - 8  See 1.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26629 on: February 27, 2018, 10:58:15 AM »
AB,

Quote
For God not to exist, we need to assume -
1. That the universe came into being on its own without divine help
2. That the initial conditions concerning the incredibly fine tuned balance between the rate of expansion of the universe an the force of Gravity (the cosmological constant) which allowed the formation of stars and galaxies was not intentional.
3. That the first living cell came into being through the actions of random, unguided, purposeless events.
4. That a sufficient quantity and quality of beneficial mutations can be generated from random events to drive the process of evolution.
5. That the detrimental effects of harmful mutations could not wipe out life entirely.
6. That every one of the billions of discrete mutations needed to form life as we know it was able to provide sufficient survival advantage in its own right to facilitate natural selection.
7. That molecular activity alone can generate self awareness.
8. That every event needed to write this post was an inevitable consequence of previous events, because we must assume that there can be no such thing as free will.

And we must presume that all these assumptions are true because God does not exist.

You fit an awful lot of wrong into one post. This’ll be lost on you, but let’s unpack it anyway:

Quote
1. That the universe came into being on its own without divine help

That assumes that it did “come into being” at all, assumes that the cause and effect we observe in the universe also applies “outside” it, and assumes that time itself is linear. It also assumes that "divine help" is a coherent option. That’s a lot of assumptions. 
 
Quote
2. That the initial conditions concerning the incredibly fine tuned balance between the rate of expansion of the universe an the force of Gravity (the cosmological constant) which allowed the formation of stars and galaxies was not intentional.

A very basic mistake. What “fine tuning” do you think there is, and why? It only looks that way if you put yourself at the centre of it and assume you were the intended outcome all along. Try looking up “anthropic principle” to see where you’ve gone wrong. 

Quote
3. That the first living cell came into being through the actions of random, unguided, purposeless events.

Half right. The “random” is questionable, but given the countless trillions of opportunities for it to happen there’s no great surprise that it did – probably many times.

Quote
4. That a sufficient quantity and quality of beneficial mutations can be generated from random events to drive the process of evolution.

Nope. That “beneficial” betrays the paucity of your thinking again. It might look beneficial to you because it produced, well, you. Had by happenstance it produced a different sentient being though, it would look the same way to that being too. 

Quote
5. That the detrimental effects of harmful mutations could not wipe out life entirely.

Er, yes – evidently so as there clearly is life. Having said that, some 99.9% of the species there have ever been have gone extinct – it’d be a pretty rubbish “creator” with that track record don’t you think? 

Quote
6. That every one of the billions of discrete mutations needed to form life as we know it was able to provide sufficient survival advantage in its own right to facilitate natural selection.

Categorically wrong. Perhaps if you found out something about the T of E you wouldn’t make this kind of schoolboy error in future? Most genetic mutations have no effect or a negative one. All natural selection requires is enough adaptability to environment to enable survival.

Quote
7. That molecular activity alone can generate self awareness.

That’s not so much an “assumption” as the direction the overwhelming body of evidence from several disciplines indicates, yes.
 
Quote
8. That every event needed to write this post was an inevitable consequence of previous events, because we must assume that there can be no such thing as free will.

We don’t need to assume it, it’s necessarily the case because it's conceptually incoherent for reasons that keep being explained to you and you keep ignoring. The model is either determinative or it’s random – the options are binary. Your third way (effectively, “it’s magic”) is epistemically worthless. 

Quote
And we must presume that all these assumptions are true because God does not exist.

That’s backwards. We tentatively conclude that these things are true because that’s where the cogent and robust reason and evidence available to us leads. “God” is irrelevant here because it’s both incoherent and lacking in reason and evidence entirely.

Oh, and your whole effort is just another argument from personal incredulity by the way – yet another of the logical fallacies of which you’re so fond and on which your claims rely.

Apart from all that though...   
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 11:10:05 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26630 on: February 27, 2018, 11:19:29 AM »
For God not to exist, we need to assume -
1. That the universe came into being on its own without divine help

That's just swapping one problem with another and explaining nothing. Instead of an unexplained universe, we have an unexplained god.

2. That the initial conditions concerning the incredibly fine tuned balance between the rate of expansion of the universe an the force of Gravity (the cosmological constant) which allowed the formation of stars and galaxies was not intentional.

See 1.

3. That the first living cell came into being through the actions of random, unguided, purposeless events.

Untrue. Nobody (who knows anything about the subject) thinks the first replicator was a cell.

4. That a sufficient quantity and quality of beneficial mutations can be generated from random events to drive the process of evolution.

There is strong evidence is that this is the case.

5. That the detrimental effects of harmful mutations could not wipe out life entirely.

For the good reason of natural selection.

6. That every one of the billions of discrete mutations needed to form life as we know it was able to provide sufficient survival advantage in its own right to facilitate natural selection.

See 4.

7. That molecular activity alone can generate self awareness.

There is no evidence for anything else.

8. That every event needed to write this post was an inevitable consequence of previous events, because we must assume that there can be no such thing as free will.

This is covered extensively elsewhere.

And we must presume that all these assumptions are true because God does not exist.

The point being that there is absolutely no evidence or sound reasoning for any sort of god. There are things about our universe that are not fully understood but just suggesting "goddidit" has all the explanatory power of "I dunno, it must be magic".
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26631 on: February 27, 2018, 11:23:13 AM »
AB,

You fit an awful lot of wrong into one post. This’ll be lost on you, but let’s unpack it anyway:

That assumes that it did “come into being” at all, assumes that the cause and effect we observe in the universe also applies “outside” it, and assumes that time itself is linear. It also assumes that "divine help" is a coherent option. That’s a lot of assumptions. 

If you are accusing Alan of wrongly extrapolating cause and effect to the outside of the universe, firstly the God argument needn't do that because God is uncreated. God, an uncreated creator is therefore very coherent with your conjecture that cause and effect may not exist outside the universe.

Having made room for God you cannot now argue that an uncreated creator is totally unreasonable.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26632 on: February 27, 2018, 11:26:56 AM »
. What “fine tuning” do you think there is,
Enough to send antitheists like Carroll and Dawkins scuttling for the exit marked Multiverse.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26633 on: February 27, 2018, 11:29:05 AM »
If you are accusing Alan of wrongly extrapolating cause and effect to the outside of the universe, firstly the God argument needn't do that because God is uncreated. God, an uncreated creator is therefore very coherent with your conjecture that cause and effect may not exist outside the universe.

Having made room for God you cannot now argue that an uncreated creator is totally unreasonable.
an 'uncreated creator' which Sunday school book have you been reading  ? don't you think it's time to grow up.?

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26634 on: February 27, 2018, 11:37:37 AM »
The uncreated creator as suggested by Bluehillside of course. 'Avent thee eckerslahk got to milk pigeons and moock out' twhippet or something?
are you experiencing some kind of seizure ? If so a ceasefire will be called until the medics can remove  you 

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26635 on: February 27, 2018, 11:39:35 AM »
If you are accusing Alan of wrongly extrapolating cause and effect to the outside of the universe, firstly the God argument needn't do that because God is uncreated. God, an uncreated creator is therefore very coherent with your conjecture that cause and effect may not exist outside the universe.

So is an uncreated tribe of pixies - all named Eric - whose many hobbies include building a universe - or creating a god, that creates universes.

So is a ten-thousandth removed meta-god, who created some gods, who created some more gods, and so on (ten thousand times).

So is a general sort of magic magicness that magically makes a universe by magic (which has exactly the same explanatory power as 'god').

So is the universe by itself - for some reason some sort of razor springs to mind...    :-\
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26636 on: February 27, 2018, 11:41:36 AM »
are you experiencing some kind of seizure ? If so a ceasefire will be called until the medics can remove  you
Medics, i hope you mean a crack team of emergency homeopaths and Acute reflexologists Ha Ha Ha Youd have to go some to see board humour as humourous as the humour what I do. Ha Ha Ha.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26637 on: February 27, 2018, 11:45:21 AM »
So is an uncreated tribe of pixies - all named Eric - whose many hobbies include building a universe - or creating a god, that creates universes.

So is a ten-thousandth removed meta-god, who created some gods, who created some more gods, and so on (ten thousand times).

So is a general sort of magic magicness that magically makes a universe by magic (which has exactly the same explanatory power as 'god').

So is the universe by itself - for some reason some sort of razor springs to mind...    :-\
Sour grapes mate, Hillside just made room for God like he and yourself did when arguing that NDG Tysons conjecture was reasonable.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26638 on: February 27, 2018, 11:49:47 AM »
Sour grapes mate, Hillside just made room for God...

Evasion noted.

Who said that some sort of god was impossible?

...like he and yourself did when arguing that NDG Tysons conjecture was reasonable.

Only an idiot would equate NdGT's speculation with god.
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Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26639 on: February 27, 2018, 11:52:35 AM »
Medics, i hope you mean a crack team of emergency homeopaths and Acute reflexologists Ha Ha Ha Youd have to go some to see board humour as humourous as the humour what I do. Ha Ha Ha.
medic!!!! MEDIC!!!

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26640 on: February 27, 2018, 11:53:34 AM »
Just after I read AB's post, my reader came and so it is lovely to come back to the computer and find several rational, interesting, sensible, logical posts to take away the gloom AB's posts can cause.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26641 on: February 27, 2018, 12:04:31 PM »
Evasion noted.

Who said that some sort of god was impossible?

Only an idiot would equate NdGT's speculation with god.
Yes only sensible people argue that an intelligent creator of the universe who is separate and independent of the universe is different from an intelligent creator of the universe who is separate and independent of the universe.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26642 on: February 27, 2018, 12:28:22 PM »
Quote
If you are accusing Alan of wrongly extrapolating cause and effect to the outside of the universe, firstly the God argument needn't do that because God is uncreated. God, an uncreated creator is therefore very coherent with your conjecture that cause and effect may not exist outside the universe.

Having made room for God you cannot now argue that an uncreated creator is totally unreasonable.

In which Vlad:

1. Fails to grasp that the cause and effect here would be his "God" causing the universe.

2. Posits an "uncreated god", thereby implicitly special pleading that the universe could not also have been "uncreated".

3. Confuses "uncreated creator" with coherence. There's nothing coherent about, "it's magic innit".

4. Fails to notice that admitting magic into the game also opens the door to any other magic conjecture anyone else may wish to pouff into existence too. 
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26643 on: February 27, 2018, 12:33:49 PM »
Yes only sensible people argue that an intelligent creator of the universe who is separate and independent of the universe is different from an intelligent creator of the universe who is separate and independent of the universe.
  • A universe simulator is not actually a separate and independent creator of the universe - it would be a some creators (one or more) of some simulated universes, within their own universe.

  • Whereas some god-stories are about universe creators, there is no implication that universe creators are gods.

  • You've once again totally changed the nature of the 'god' you are suggesting within the space of a handful of posts.

  • NdGT's speculation is totally unconvincing anyway.

  • Trying to make the connection to god from this explicitly naturalistic speculation really is the most ridiculous fucking nonsense you've ever come out with - which is saying a hell of a lot.
I suspect that you've only brought up this patent idiocy again in order to avoid the other points made, anyway.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26644 on: February 27, 2018, 12:35:05 PM »
Stranger,

Quote
Evasion noted.

Who said that some sort of god was impossible?

No-one. That's the big lie on which Vlad relies so as to attack his own straw man. He redefines the terminology to fit the straw man too, which is odd as there are terms that describe what he's trying to say only no-one here at least subscribes to them.

Quote
Only an idiot would equate NdGT's speculation with god.

An idiot did. A lot.
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26645 on: February 27, 2018, 12:57:25 PM »
In which Vlad:

1. Fails to grasp that the cause and effect here would be his "God" causing the universe.

2. Posits an "uncreated god", thereby implicitly special pleading that the universe could not also have been "uncreated".

3. Confuses "uncreated creator" with coherence. There's nothing coherent about, "it's magic innit".

4. Fails to notice that admitting magic into the game also opens the door to any other magic conjecture anyone else may wish to pouff into existence too.
I don't fail anything. You have failed to gate an intelligent creator of the universe. You have failed to gate an uncreated creator of the universe. In fact you have put forward arguments for them.

These are suggestions of classical theology.

Admitting magic? You are the one suggesting Cause and effect may not work outside of the universe.

Given the failure of suggesting the possibility of an intelligent creator (outside the universe it creates and independent of it) and being certain of the nature of that creator,You have no warrant to rule what type of intelligent creator you have been arguing for. Bad luck there.

Finally if Eric the pixie did create the universe he deserves far more respect than you guys are affording him.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26646 on: February 27, 2018, 01:06:26 PM »
Quote
I don't fail anything. You have failed to gate an intelligent creator of the universe. You have failed to gate an uncreated creator of the universe. In fact you have put forward arguments for them.

These are suggestions of classical theology.

Admitting magic? You are the one suggesting Cause and effect may not work outside of the universe.

Given the failure of suggesting the possibility of an intelligent creator (outside the universe it creates and independent of it) and being certain of the nature of that creator,You have no warrant to rule what type of intelligent creator you have been arguing for. Bad luck there.

Finally if Eric the pixie did create the universe he deserves far more respect than you guys are affording him.

Been a while since old Vladdo attempted the negative proof fallacy. Coming next: "You have failed to "gate" the orbiting teapot assertion, therefore...er".
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26647 on: February 27, 2018, 01:19:01 PM »
Been a while since old Vladdo attempted the negative proof fallacy. Coming next: "You have failed to "gate" the orbiting teapot assertion, therefore...er".
And where have I said you can't disprove God therefore God exists? That's right nowhere.

You are criticising Alan for assuming and I quote ''that the cause and effect we observe in the universe also applies “outside” it,''

Thus opening the door, reasonably, to an uncreated creator..........Bad luck old son.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26648 on: February 27, 2018, 01:25:02 PM »
Thus opening the door, reasonably, to an uncreated creator..........

There is no "reasonably" about baseless guesswork.

Your specific god, along with most of the other Christian gods, appears to be ruled out by its multiple contradictions but, more generally, gods are often unfalsifiable and so, rather than being completely ruled out, are just baseless guesses.

Like this....
Finally if Eric the pixie did create the universe he deserves far more respect than you guys are affording him.

You're forgetting that Eric had a whole team to help - we must not forget Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, and Eric - even Eric who made the tea, needs suitable respect!

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26649 on: February 27, 2018, 01:35:47 PM »
  • A universe simulator is not actually a separate and independent creator of the universe - it would be a some creators (one or more) of some simulated universes, within their own universe.

  • Whereas some god-stories are about universe creators, there is no implication that universe creators are gods.

  • You've once again totally changed the nature of the 'god' you are suggesting within the space of a handful of posts.

  • NdGT's speculation is totally unconvincing anyway.

  • Trying to make the connection to god from this explicitly naturalistic speculation really is the most ridiculous fucking nonsense you've ever come out with - which is saying a hell of a lot.
I suspect that you've only brought up this patent idiocy again in order to avoid the other points made, anyway.
An intelligent creator or creators you have no warrant for eliminating one or another.

Intelligent, outside and independent of the universe which it has created. In what way is that naturalistic in our universe? You must be committing the mother and father of all redefinitions to suit.