Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3861248 times)

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26725 on: March 06, 2018, 02:03:22 PM »
So what do we learn from this ?  if you spend a lifetime building a belief, you'll end up believing it.
As can be said for your commitment to naturalism, so your position is no better.

There again, all one side needs to do is to set up a tautology for their position (see Bluehillside's posts in particular) and then you can hide behind never having to justify it.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26726 on: March 06, 2018, 02:05:33 PM »
Are you really claiming to have a faith claim "leprechauns"? Unless you are, there is no common reference with what Alan believes, so any comparison is invalid. You may as well compare the following statements;
"Barack Obama is the Prime Minister of England"
"Donald Trump is the President of the USA"
Try again 0/10

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26727 on: March 06, 2018, 02:25:17 PM »
As can be said for your commitment to naturalism, so your position is no better.

Which sounds rather like a spot of tu quoque.

Quote
There again, all one side needs to do is to set up a tautology for their position (see Bluehillside's posts in particular) and then you can hide behind never having to justify it.

In what sense are BHS's posts tautological?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26728 on: March 06, 2018, 02:47:50 PM »
AB,

But what use is that, any more than my expression of certainty about leprechauns which, by a remarkable coincidence, has also “developed over a lifetime journey in faith”?

You remind me a bit of a conger eel that tentatively peeks out of its hole and shoots straight back in again when it feels threatened. When you attempt arguments and reason to validate your faith beliefs and they’re falsified (as they always are) rather than deal with the problem you just resort to, “but that’s my faith and I’m certain about it”.

Faith is fine and dandy for you if you like that kind of thing, but it’s epistemically worthless for anyone else. Why? Because your faith claim “God” is no more investigable than my faith claim “leprechauns”.

And that my friend scuppers completely your attempts at proselytising.
What I am saying is that my faith experience allows me to see a much bigger picture of the reality behind our existence.  When I try to explain this in words, I admit that my somewhat inadequate attempts to convey the truth as I see it seems to be misunderstood by many on this forum.  As I have explained previously, I fully understand all the counter arguments and rejections of my ideas and thoughts, but none can possibly convince me that the God I have come to know and love does not exist.

And your continuing attempts to compare belief in leprechauns to Christian faith does not make your arguments any more convincing.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26729 on: March 06, 2018, 03:03:47 PM »
SotS,

Quote
Are you really claiming to have a faith claim "leprechauns"? Unless you are, there is no common reference with what Alan believes, so any comparison is invalid. You may as well compare the following statements;
"Barack Obama is the Prime Minister of England"
"Donald Trump is the President of the USA"

Wow. When you miss the point you really miss the point don’t you.

Of course the comparison is valid – at least it is unless you’ve found some hitherto unknown relationship between the strength or genuineness of a belief and its truth. You haven’t have you?

Oh, and even if you have that still wouldn’t help you. All I’d have to do is to line up believers in Zeus, Poseidon, the aborigine gods, the Amazonian gods, the…etc who believe (or believed) every bit as strongly in their gods as AB believes in his.

Can you see now why faith claims are epistemically worthless however strongly they happen to be held?   
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God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26730 on: March 06, 2018, 03:07:54 PM »
What I am saying is that my faith experience allows me to see a much bigger picture of the reality behind our existence.
There isn't 'another reality behind our existence'. This is reality. We live it every minute. The good news the bad news, the natural world, all that we can experience with our five senses, and all that we can imagine with our brains. There isn't another existence which is invisible, uninvestigable, totally unable to be experienced by our senses, and absolutely devoid of any objective evidence at all. You can imagine there is, but your imagination will be deluding you if it convinces you there is actually such a reality.     
Quote
When I try to explain this in words, I admit that my somewhat inadequate attempts to convey the truth as I see it seems to be misunderstood by many on this forum.  As I have explained previously, I fully understand all the counter arguments and rejections of my ideas and thoughts, but none can possibly convince me that the God I have come to know and love does not exist.
It has been evident for a long time that you do not understand the arguments put forward to refute your claims.
Quote
And your continuing attempts to compare belief in leprechauns to Christian faith does not make your arguments any more convincing.
That is because you never actually consider them impartially. As a result, you are missing the reality of your existence.

P.S. to all but AB: I hope I haven't accidentally put in a double negative in the first part!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26731 on: March 06, 2018, 03:13:34 PM »
SotS,

Quote
As can be said for your commitment to naturalism, so your position is no better.

Yikes – CATEGORY ERROR! CATEGORY ERROR!

Slowly now, a “commitment to naturalism” as you put it is not the equivalent to statements of fact about a supposed supernatural. Naturalism is probabilistic – it’s merely the finding that the natural is all we know of so far that’s reliably accessible and investigable. Supernaturalism on the other hand makes positive claims of fact about a supposed supernatural (“God” etc) with no means of investigation whatever, and is in a different category. Think of it as method vs content rather than “content vs different content” if that helps.

Good grief! 

Quote
There again, all one side needs to do is to set up a tautology for their position (see Bluehillside's posts in particular) and then you can hide behind never having to justify it.

Ah, so now we can add “tautology” to the list of words (alongside “gullible” remember?) that you don’t understand.

Fair enough. 
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God

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26732 on: March 06, 2018, 03:14:56 PM »
SotS,

Wow. When you miss the point you really miss the point don’t you.

Of course the comparison is valid – at least it is unless you’ve found some hitherto unknown relationship between the strength or genuineness of a belief and its truth. You haven’t have you?

Oh, and even if you have that still wouldn’t help you. All I’d have to do is to line up believers in Zeus, Poseidon, the aborigine gods, the Amazonian gods, the…etc who believe (or believed) every bit as strongly in their gods as AB believes in his.

Can you see now why faith claims are epistemically worthless however strongly they happen to be held?   

And they've opened up a Klingon hotel in Sweden, as they say on the BBC radio 2, the 3 pm news today, so least there's evidence to support 'Star Trek' but unfortunately for you Alan?

The very kindest of regards to you Alan, ippy

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26733 on: March 06, 2018, 03:29:51 PM »
There's now been over a million views of this thread!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26734 on: March 06, 2018, 03:33:15 PM »
AB,

Quote
What I am saying is that my faith experience allows me to see a much bigger picture of the reality behind our existence.

You can say it if you like, but as it’s just another faith claim there’s no reason for anyone to think you’re right about that.

Quote
When I try to explain this in words, I admit that my somewhat inadequate attempts to convey the truth as I see it seems to be misunderstood by many on this forum.

No, it’s not that they’re “misunderstood”. Actually they’re better understood than you understand them. The problem though is that that better understanding tells some of where and why you make mistakes in reasoning when you try to argue for your “God”.   

Quote
As I have explained previously, I fully understand all the counter arguments and rejections of my ideas and thoughts…

That’s not true. Take for example your recent attempt at the fine tuning argument. You attempted it as an argument for “God” and I explained that it was a false argument because it’s circular. Rather than address the circularity problem though you just told me I was wrong and carried on telling us how unlikely it is that “you” exist by happenstance – utterly missing the point of the logic that undoes you. This tells me that you didn’t understand the counter-argument at all. If you did you’d either try to rebut it or you'd amend or abandon your argument. What you actually do though is just to repeat the wrong arguments as if they hadn’t been falsified at all.     

Quote
…but none can possibly convince me that the God I have come to know and love does not exist.

Again you’re misunderstanding. No-one is trying to convince you that the God you have “come to know and love does not exist”. What’s actually happening is that, when you try to make arguments to demonstrate that you’re correct in that belief, they’re always wrong arguments. That’s not to say that there couldn’t be an argument for “God” that you haven’t thought of and that is robust, but it is to say that you’ve never managed to provide one.

Which is why all you have left is assertions of personal faith.

Which is why you have nothing of epistemic value to say. 

Quote
And your continuing attempts to compare belief in leprechauns to Christian faith does not make your arguments any more convincing.


And again you miss the point. Sometimes (quite often in fact) the arguments you attempt for your god “work” just as well for my leprechauns, for the Amazonian tribesman’s tree god, for the etc etc. That’s the point – it has nothing to do with the content of the claim (“God”, leprechauns, whatever) and everything to do with the arguments attempted to validate it. That’s why your claim “God” and my claim “leprechauns” are epistemically identical – they rest on the same bad arguments and on the same assertions of personal faith.

QED
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 04:14:52 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26735 on: March 06, 2018, 03:39:22 PM »
NS,

Quote
There's now been over a million views of this thread!

Wow. A record here?

Be nice if Jakswan got 000.1p per view or something.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26736 on: March 06, 2018, 03:42:07 PM »
my favourite word of the day ;

epistemic .

thanks Blue.

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26737 on: March 06, 2018, 03:45:11 PM »
There's now been over a million views of this thread!
helped by all those guests who never post , I presume .

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26738 on: March 06, 2018, 03:58:03 PM »
What I am saying is that my faith experience allows me to see a much bigger picture of the reality behind our existence.

While I'm sure you believe that, I see no evidence whatsoever of its truth.

When I try to explain this in words, I admit that my somewhat inadequate attempts to convey the truth as I see it seems to be misunderstood by many on this forum.

You could correct misunderstandings but you never do; you just present bad arguments and then repeat them, often ignoring the counterarguments.

Which brings me back to the question I asked earlier: why would your god not provide clear, logical reasons to (at the very least) think it exists? Doubly mystifying if it has an important message for us...

As I have explained previously, I fully understand all the counter arguments and rejections of my ideas and thoughts...

The evidence from your posts suggests otherwise.

...but none can possibly convince me that the God I have come to know and love does not exist.

If nothing could change your mind, that just makes you close-minded and not open to evidence or reasoning.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26739 on: March 06, 2018, 04:33:10 PM »
There isn't 'another reality behind our existence'. This is reality. We live it every minute. The good news the bad news, the natural world, all that we can experience with our five senses, and all that we can imagine with our brains. There isn't another existence which is invisible, uninvestigable, totally unable to be experienced by our senses, and absolutely devoid of any objective evidence at all. You can imagine there is, but your imagination will be deluding you if it convinces you there is actually such a reality.   
I fully agree that there is only one reality, Susan.  And we have only one lifetime to discover it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26740 on: March 06, 2018, 05:14:15 PM »
As can be said for your commitment to naturalism, so your position is no better.

There again, all one side needs to do is to set up a tautology for their position (see Bluehillside's posts in particular) and then you can hide behind never having to justify it.

Eh ?  What nonsense. I haven't spent a lifetime trying to build a belief in naturalism; it's just a default position unless there is the evidence to the contrary

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26741 on: March 06, 2018, 05:15:33 PM »
I fully agree that there is only one reality, Susan.  And we have only one lifetime to discover it.

And the reason why this alleged god would hide the real deal, such that people have to search for it is  .... ??

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26742 on: March 06, 2018, 05:35:15 PM »
And the reason why this alleged god would hide the real deal, such that people have to search for it is  .... ??
But God has not hidden Himself from us.  He made Himself known through Jesus, and continues to make Himself known through the power of the Holy Spirit.  It may not be the way you would imagine Him to do it, but you are not God.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26743 on: March 06, 2018, 05:42:42 PM »
But God has not hidden Himself from us.  He made Himself known through Jesus, and continues to make Himself known through the power of the Holy Spirit.  It may not be the way you would imagine Him to do it, but you are not God.

God (if it exists) obviously is hiding from us otherwise, it would be obvious to us, wouldn't it? As it is we have no objective evidence, no sound logical arguments. Nothing in fact that doesn't look for all the world like just another daft superstition.

If this god of yours is real, it's either hiding or has a really bad communication problem.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26744 on: March 06, 2018, 05:45:03 PM »
AB,

Quote
But God has not hidden Himself from us.  He made Himself known through Jesus, and continues to make Himself known through the power of the Holy Spirit.  It may not be the way you would imagine Him to do it, but you are not God.

All claims I don't doubt you sincerely believe to be true. Can you think of a single cogent reason for anyone else to think you're right though? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26745 on: March 06, 2018, 05:47:04 PM »
But God has not hidden Himself from us.  He made Himself known through Jesus, and continues to make Himself known through the power of the Holy Spirit.  It may not be the way you would imagine Him to do it, but you are not God.
More bland, self-satisfied, sugar-coated, cotton-nwoollythinking.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26746 on: March 06, 2018, 06:55:28 PM »
God (if it exists) obviously is hiding from us otherwise, it would be obvious to us, wouldn't it? As it is we have no objective evidence, no sound logical arguments. Nothing in fact that doesn't look for all the world like just another daft superstition.

If this god of yours is real, it's either hiding or has a really bad communication problem.
God's existence is obvious to me, and to millions of others
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26747 on: March 06, 2018, 06:58:42 PM »
God's existence is obvious to me, and to millions of others

Most people say they believe in God in my experience. If it was obvious it wouldn't be a belief would it?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26748 on: March 06, 2018, 07:02:36 PM »
AB,

Quote
God's existence is obvious to me, and to millions of others

Lots of faith beliefs seem obvious to the people who hold them. What makes yours so special?

Nice attempt at an argumentum ad populum though (one of your favourite fallacies).
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God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26749 on: March 06, 2018, 07:39:26 PM »
God's existence is obvious to me, and to millions of others

That really isn't the point, is it? If your god exists, it is still hiding from most people in the world: whichever god(s) you believe in, the majority of people think you are wrong.

If a god does exist, wants to make itself known, and has the ability to do so, there is no reason why it shouldn't be obvious to everyone, including those of us who like to base their beliefs on objective evidence and/or sound reasoning.
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