Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

(1) If choices are influenced by personal character and feelings then the wilful act which follows is not free from those influences.

Of course it is not free from those influences, but they are just influences - they do not fully determine my choice.

(2) Similarly by thinking up an action, that action is not free from those thought processes which will most likely be based upon past ideas including the idea of a God given freedom.

It is our freedom to think which gives us the power to choose.  We have the power to guide our own thoughts.

(3) Impulsive behaviour is not a consciously driven act.  It is impelled by the subconscious contents of your psyche.  You were impelled to act unconsciously not free to act consciously.

Throwing a brick is a deliberate act.  It can't be done unconsciously.

(4)If you wanted to throw the brick then it was driven by your want or desire to do so.  You don't necessarily need a reason to do so, just a subconscious irrational impulse.

I am fully aware of my wants and desires - they are not confined to my subconscious.

[torridon]

Have you ever felt sorry for something you have done in the past?  Have you apologised for it?  Have you regretted anything you have done? 

The reason we feel sorry, make an apology or feel regret is because we know that we could have made a different choice.

And I feel certain that animals have no capacity in this area because they have no freedom of choice over what they do.

You ought to lay off that certainty; it cripples your openness to learning.

The degree to which other animals can feel guilt probably depends on their degree of cognitive sophistication; it's not an either/or thing.

[torridon]

.I am fully aware of my wants and desires - they are not confined to my subconscious.

I take it you haven't come across Sigmund Freud yet then ?

[Alan Burns]

A dog can look guilty when it has done something it should not have done.

I think you may be over interpreting what goes on in a dog's mind.   

[torridon]

Of course it is not free from those influences, but they are just influences - they do not fully determine my choice.

So if it is not a relevant factor that determines your eventual choice, then your choice is random.  This is what you are saying; you just don't seem to understand what you are saying.

[Stranger]

...how would you be able to tell if what you wanted to do at each moment was determined (by past events, your nature, nurture, and experience)?...

Have you ever felt sorry for something you have done in the past?  Have you apologised for it?  Have you regretted anything you have done? 

The reason we feel sorry, make an apology or feel regret is because we know that we could have made a different choice.

And I feel certain that animals have no capacity in this area because they have no freedom of choice over what they do.

How about actually answering one of the questions you keep avoiding? I mean, just for a change - instead of posting the usual stream of fallacies and baseless assertions?

Anyway here is another couple of (similar) questions for you to avoid:

How could you possibly know you could have made a different choice? What would be different about your experience if you couldn't?

Further, if you could literally go back in time to the exact same circumstances of the choice - including your exact state of mind at that moment - and you still insist that you could have decided differently, then there couldn't possibly be any reason for you to make a different choice (everything about it is exactly the same) so the only way you could choose differently is by some random variation.

[floo]

I think you may be over interpreting what goes on in a dog's mind.   

And I think you are under-interpreting it, a dog does know when it has done wrong.

[Alan Burns]

So if it is not a relevant factor that determines your eventual choice, then your choice is random.  This is what you are saying; you just don't seem to understand what you are saying.

The relevant factor is your conscious will.  This is not random.

[Alan Burns]

Have you ever felt sorry for something you have done in the past?  Have you apologised for it?  Have you regretted anything you have done? 

The reason we feel sorry, make an apology or feel regret is because we know that we could have made a different choice.

And I feel certain that animals have no capacity in this area because they have no freedom of choice over what they do.


How about actually answering one of the questions you keep avoiding? I mean, just for a change - instead of posting the usual stream of fallacies and baseless assertions?

Anyway here is another couple of (similar) questions for you to avoid:

How could you possibly know you could have made a different choice? What would be different about your experience if you couldn't?

Further, if you could literally go back in time to the exact same circumstances of the choice - including your exact state of mind at that moment - and you still insist that you could have decided differently, then there couldn't possibly be any reason for you to make a different choice (everything about it is exactly the same) so the only way you could choose differently is by some random variation.

You imply that everything works like clockwork, and we can turn back time and re run everything exactly as it was.  We can't.  Every moment in time is unique and we can't go back and replicate it.  Once a choice is made, there can be no going back, but that does not prevent us from realising that we could have made a different choice.

[Gordon]

I am fully aware of my wants and desires - they are not confined to my subconscious.

You don't know what impulses or wants are driven by your subconscious so you really aren't as fully aware (or free) as you like to think you are.

[torridon]

The relevant factor is your conscious will.  This is not random.

You're just going round in circles.  Your conscious will does not spring out of nowhere; it is derived from need.  I want to eat a hamburger now, why, because I am getting hungry.  A element of conscious will that had no prior origin would be a random thing, by definition.

[Stranger]

You imply that everything works like clockwork, and we can turn back time and re run everything exactly as it was.  We can't.  Every moment in time is unique and we can't go back and replicate it.  Once a choice is made, there can be no going back, but that does not prevent us from realising that we could have made a different choice.

Once again you've ignored the questions, avoided the points, and just gone back to a baseless assertion of certainty you couldn't possibly have a basis for.

It would seem that for all your protestations about freedom, your blind faith is so restricting your thought processes, that you cannot even bring yourself to actually consider the points being raised. Hence the never ending evasion and repeated instances of simply ignoring what has been said or asked.

You are a living, breathing example of a mind obviously and completely boxed in by its past.

How about proving me wrong and actually answering some questions?

• What is the basis of your certainty that you could have chosen differently? What would be different about your experience if you couldn't?
  
  
• I know that we can't turn back time but if your assertion that you could have chosen differently does not mean that if everything was exactly the same (including your state of mind, in other words, as if time had been rewound) you could have chosen differently, what does it mean?

[Alan Burns]

You're just going round in circles.  Your conscious will does not spring out of nowhere; it is derived from need.  I want to eat a hamburger now, why, because I am getting hungry.  A element of conscious will that had no prior origin would be a random thing, by definition.

The origin of my will lies in the conscious awareness of my human soul.  This is what enables me to make conscious choices which are not just inevitable, uncontrolled reactions to what has gone before.  And they are not random.

[floo]

The origin of my will lies in the conscious awareness of my human soul.  This is what enables me to make conscious choices which are not just inevitable, uncontrolled reactions to what has gone before.

It is your conscious imagination, rather than awareness, imo.

[torridon]

The origin of my will lies in the conscious awareness of my human soul.  This is what enables me to make conscious choices which are not just inevitable, uncontrolled reactions to what has gone before.  And they are not random.

Whatever desires a soul has, they must be derived from something in order to not be random.  Adding 'soul' adds nothing but noise to the logic.

[Alan Burns]

Once again you've ignored the questions, avoided the points, and just gone back to a baseless assertion of certainty you couldn't possibly have a basis for.

It would seem that for all your protestations about freedom, your blind faith is so restricting your thought processes, that you cannot even bring yourself to actually consider the points being raised. Hence the never ending evasion and repeated instances of simply ignoring what has been said or asked.

You are a living, breathing example of a mind obviously and completely boxed in by its past.

How about proving me wrong and actually answering some questions?

• What is the basis of your certainty that you could have chosen differently? What would be different about your experience if you couldn't?
  
  
• I know that we can't turn back time but if your assertion that you could have chosen differently does not mean that if everything was exactly the same (including your state of mind, in other words, as if time had been rewound) you could have chosen differently, what does it mean?

It means that our conscious choice is not absolutely defined by past events.  It is influenced by them, but the ability to choose is derived from our conscious awareness, which always exists and performs in the present.

[Alan Burns]

Whatever desires a soul has, they must be derived from something in order to not be random.  Adding 'soul' adds nothing but noise to the logic.

A desire does not necessarily define a conscious choice.  It can influence it, but the choice is invoked by the conscious will of the human soul, which is always performing in the present.  At any moment in time, we are aware of our desires and needs, but our conscious choices are not dictated by them.  We have ultimate, overriding control given to us by the power of the human soul.  Without this power, we are just automated biological machines under the control of nature alone.

[Stranger]

It means that our conscious choice is not absolutely defined by past events.  It is influenced by them, but the ability to choose is derived from our conscious awareness, which always exists and performs in the present.

So - you ignored first question and the 'answer' isn't actually an answer to the second - it's just a restatement of your self-contradictory nonsense.

What do you really mean by "I could have chosen differently" with regard to past events? Do you actually mean "I could have chosen differently, if..." the 'if' being things like "I had thought about it more", "not been so angry", and so on?

If there's an "if", then we are back to determinism and in exactly the same situation (and state of mind) you actually couldn't have chosen differently. If there is no "if", then you are saying that there was a random element.

[torridon]

A desire does not necessarily define a conscious choice.  It can influence it, but the choice is invoked by the conscious will of the human soul, which is always performing in the present.  At any moment in time, we are aware of our desires and needs, but our conscious choices are not dictated by them.  We have ultimate, overriding control given to us by the power of the human soul.  Without this power, we are just automated biological machines under the control of nature alone.

You're going round in circles, just repeating things that have already been addressed.

If it is a soul that is doing the choosing, that doesn't alter the fact that the resolving of choice needs a meaningful method, otherwise the outcome is not meaningful.  Whether it is a soul doing it, or a brain doing it, it still comes down to weighing up rival options to identify which one plays out best against our inner values and priorities.  There is no plausible conceivable other scenario for the resolution of choice.

We aren't under the control of nature, so much, as expressions of nature; and nature itself is an expression of logic.  To try to paint ourselves as 'outside' of nature is to paint ourselves as illogical beings.

[ekim]

(1)Of course it is not free from those influences, but they are just influences - they do not fully determine my choice.
(2)It is our freedom to think which gives us the power to choose.  We have the power to guide our own thoughts.
(3)Throwing a brick is a deliberate act.  It can't be done unconsciously.
(4)I am fully aware of my wants and desires - they are not confined to my subconscious.

(1)In which case you are not fully free, your choice will be determined by a selection from a flow of thoughts.
(2)In which case you are not free from thought and your will is determined by thought processes which could be logical or illogical, rational or irrational.
(3)It can be a deliberate act, just like throwing a cricket ball with intention in a cricket match.  However you described your action as impulsive which suggests a subconscious emotional motive over which you had no conscious control.  You were impelled.
(4)So, on the particular occasion in question, you were aware of your desire to throw a brick at your friend.  Why did you desire to do that?

[Enki]

I think you may be over interpreting what goes on in a dog's mind.   

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/animal_free_will_their_personalities_are_unpredictable_just_ours-123551

[ippy]

The origin of my will lies in the conscious awareness of my human soul.  This is what enables me to make conscious choices which are not just inevitable, uncontrolled reactions to what has gone before.  And they are not random.

The origin of my will lies in the conscious awareness of my leprechaun guiding me. This is what enables me to make conscious choices which are not just inevitable, uncontrolled reactions to what has gone before.  And they are not random.

Equally as rational as you are Alan.

Necessarily good wishes to you Alan, ippy

[Alan Burns]

So - you ignored first question and the 'answer' isn't actually an answer to the second - it's just a restatement of your self-contradictory nonsense.

What do you really mean by "I could have chosen differently" with regard to past events? Do you actually mean "I could have chosen differently, if..." the 'if' being things like "I had thought about it more", "not been so angry", and so on?

If there's an "if", then we are back to determinism and in exactly the same situation (and state of mind) you actually couldn't have chosen differently. If there is no "if", then you are saying that there was a random element.

But the "ifs" you refer to are all driven by your own freedom to guide your own thought processes - it ultimately comes down to you.  You are responsible for your own actions.

[Alan Burns]

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/animal_free_will_their_personalities_are_unpredictable_just_ours-123551

I do not think this presents a balanced view on the subject, but whether or not you believe in animals having the gift of free will, it does nothing to alter the evidence for the existence of our own gift of free will.

[Stranger]

But the "ifs" you refer to are all driven by your own freedom to guide your own thought processes - it ultimately comes down to you.  You are responsible for your own actions.

The ifs I gave as examples are to do with your state of mind - and your state of mind at a given point in time is one of the things that contribute to the choices you make. Nobody is suggesting that we make choices that don't depend on how we feel, what mood we're in, or any other aspect of our state of mind.

So when you said you could have made a different choice in the past, do you actually mean you could if you'd been in exactly the same state of mind and in exactly the same circumstances (as if time had been rewound)?