Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3868024 times)

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27750 on: March 30, 2018, 02:51:32 PM »
No, if you are saying that my interpretation is indistinguishable from a guess then it's jolly well down to you to back up that positive assertion.

Don't be absurd. In the absence of a method to distinguish a statement from a guess, it is indistinguishable from a guess, that is what indistinguishable means: Not able to be identified as different or distinct.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27751 on: March 30, 2018, 02:54:47 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
No, if you are saying that my interpretation is indistinguishable from a guess then it's jolly well down to you to back up that positive assertion.

Come on then hotshot.

Like I said, the burden of proof still has you foxed I see. If I said that I heard a sound from my garage the other day so it's a trapped dragon that made it you'd (presumably) say something like:

1. I don't doubt that you had an experience of some kind - you heard a sound.

2. Your reaching for the explanation "dragon" though has neither logic nor evidence to support it, and so fits exactly the characteristics of a guess.

3. Other (though less thrilling) explanations are moreover available - maybe a tin of paint fell off a shelf for example.

Imagine then that I replied:   

"No, if you are saying that my interpretation is indistinguishable from a guess then it's jolly well down to you to back up that positive assertion.

Come on then hotshot."   

What kind of twat would you think me to be?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 03:18:29 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27752 on: March 30, 2018, 02:56:44 PM »
The explanation is in the rest of my post.

And it's up to you (burden of proof) to provide the justification if you want others to take your interpretation of your internal experience seriously as an encounter with an objectively real god (and hence reject many other people's religious experiences).

You would also need to explain why you don't take everybody else's interpretations of their own experiences seriously. In particular, those who have believed in your god and then reinterpreted the experiences and those who are equally convinced about other gods. It would also be interesting to know if you believe in alien abductions, ghosts, and other interpretations of experience than many have reported, and if not, why not, and why you think anybody should take your experience and its interpretation more seriously...
Who says I don't.
You seem to be projecting your inability to distinguish religious claims from guessing on to me.

I'm sure one can have an experience of God without being moved either to question or experience one's salvation. Who know's what is in the whole of reality?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27753 on: March 30, 2018, 02:57:56 PM »
Just for fun, here's Tim Minchin detonating the utter bollocks Vlad, Sword et al have been attempting recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27754 on: March 30, 2018, 03:00:20 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
You seem to be projecting your inability to distinguish religious claims from guessing on to me.

It's not his inability, it's yours - or at least it is unless you have some method of doing the distinguishing that you've been hiding all this time?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27755 on: March 30, 2018, 03:02:14 PM »
The well stirred word soup stage of another one of Vlad's postings, I can't be bothered with it, all he does is to become more and more obtuse using words he thinks he understands.

I have to say though, the way Vlad uses words does impress!

Regards ippy
]
And at least Vlad stays around to write more stuff which sotS doesn't seem to. I expect SotS is busy feeling gloomy today because of thinking about the Christians' version of the ancient Spring equinox celebrations.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27756 on: March 30, 2018, 03:08:32 PM »
Just for fun, here's Tim Minchin detonating the utter bollocks Vlad, Sword et al have been attempting recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk
Glad to see your argument degenerate to ''Utter bollocks''

Tim Minchin....couldn't....on stage....apparently....manager....a little funny.......onstage before it wears off.......

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27757 on: March 30, 2018, 03:11:18 PM »
Glad to see your argument degenerate to ''Utter bollocks''

Tim Minchin....couldn't....on stage....apparently....manager....a little funny.......onstage before it wears off.......

I think that applies to your responses! ;D

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27758 on: March 30, 2018, 03:25:58 PM »
bluehillside

Thank you for posting the link to the Tim Minchin video which was of course correct in every detail - but much as I'd like to put the link on a couple of other forums, I will have to refrain from doing so because he does use language that would upset some. A pity.


them. A pity,. Is there by any chance a version without the
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27759 on: March 30, 2018, 03:27:52 PM »
Vlad,

It's not his inability, it's yours - or at least it is unless you have some method of doing the distinguishing that you've been hiding all this time?
I'm quite happy that I have experienced the external God. because I know the difference between a guess and conviction. I didn't believe and now I do. I have been changed from one thing into another. I have travelled from A to B. As I said I was gifted a linguistic framework in which I describe my experience. Other language frameworks are inadequate for the purpose as are other philosophies.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27760 on: March 30, 2018, 03:29:50 PM »
bluehillside

Thank you for posting the link to the Tim Minchin video which was of course correct in every detail - but much as I'd like to put the link on a couple of other forums, I will have to refrain from doing so because he does use language that would upset some. A pity.


them. A pity,. Is there by any chance a version without the
What point do you think Minchin was making?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27761 on: March 30, 2018, 03:36:00 PM »
Just for fun, here's Tim Minchin detonating the utter bollocks Vlad, Sword et al have been attempting recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk
Starting with ''I'm going to be taking the piss'' muddies the waters somewhat'.
Given my alternative antitheist comedy allergy could you give timings for when he actually makes a point?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27762 on: March 30, 2018, 03:39:48 PM »
I'm quite happy that I have experienced the external God. because I know the difference between a guess and conviction. I didn't believe and now I do. I have been changed from one thing into another. I have travelled from A to B...

Did you wave at Rhiannon travelling in the opposite direction; and perhaps stop to wonder, why ?

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27763 on: March 30, 2018, 03:59:17 PM »
Starting with ''I'm going to be taking the piss'' muddies the waters somewhat'.
Given my alternative antitheist comedy allergy could you give timings for when he actually makes a point?
When I was a child, to say 'damn' was the cause of a slight wince in my family and environment!! And one certainly did not 'take the Lord's name in vain'.  No problem, as far as I was concerned, as I've never had the least inclination to swear. Then during the years I was married, a multitude of words was used against and about me as abuse, so with a comprehensive vocabulary in my memory, I had even less interest in using it; the more the world has changed, the more one realises which words are used in an abusive way and which not; I still have no wish or need to use them myself; offence is taken by some, but not by me; since I long ago worked out that it is the user who has the nasty feelings, to which they are welcome.

What are your present-day objections to the use of the language in the Tim Minchin video? Do you think your God might be offended? Are you? Why? Yes, the language would be labelled by some as gratuitous bad language, but people know he is not intending to offend, but to add
a strong emphasis.

Oh, and by the way, Timn Minchin is just pointing out that all claims made involving all aspects of paranormal, supernatural and woo have zero objective evidence to back them up.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27764 on: March 30, 2018, 04:09:13 PM »
When I was a child, to say 'damn' was the cause of a slight wince in my family and environment!! And one certainly did not 'take the Lord's name in vain'.  No problem, as far as I was concerned, as I've never had the least inclination to swear. Then during the years I was married, a multitude of words was used against and about me as abuse, so with a comprehensive vocabulary in my memory, I had even less interest in using it; the more the world has changed, the more one realises which words are used in an abusive way and which not; I still have no wish or need to use them myself; offence is taken by some, but not by me; since I long ago worked out that it is the user who has the nasty feelings, to which they are welcome.

What are your present-day objections to the use of the language in the Tim Minchin video? Do you think your God might be offended? Are you? Why? Yes, the language would be labelled by some as gratuitous bad language, but people know he is not intending to offend, but to add
a strong emphasis.

Oh, and by the way, Timn Minchin is just pointing out that all claims made involving all aspects of paranormal, supernatural and woo have zero objective evidence to back them up.
O.K. Back to philosophical materialism then.

Offence is all in the mind of the antitheist since Minchin is obviously having an indignant, all be it, lucrative rant.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27765 on: March 30, 2018, 04:15:02 PM »
Interesting response, Ekim.

(1)..I don't doubt that there are other ways that you can look at these things, but I was specifically responding to Sots's question on whether you can have objective evidence that your partner(who clearly exists, and can be intersubjectively verified) loves you, and then extending this to the idea of a relationship with God, who, Sots suggested, clearly exists For Alan(see post 27656), although His existence cannot be intersubjectively verified.

(2)..I have no problem with seeing a relationship with a god in an entirely different way, if that is what one chooses to do. However, a mystical approach cannot possibly verify, in any meaningful way(apart from for the participant) the actual existence of said god. Indeed, if I follow you correctly, this would not even be the point of the exercise, as the 'love' that is so invoked seems to me to emanate purely from the individual participant concerned.
(1) In the sense I was describing 'love', I was suggesting it like a 'state' of being i.e. one-ness, without boundaries.  I may be in that 'state' but it would be difficult to be sure that my partner was in that same state.  As regards 'relationship with God', it depends what is meant by God.  If God is Love (as an example definition) then if you are in the 'state' I mentioned then you are one with God, 'you' being the consciousness being within the body and free from separating mental constructs.
(2)The trouble with 'actual existence of said god' is the varying ideas of said god which people seem to have ranging from an omniscient, omnipotent Charlton Heston look alike to a vague nothingness to a Floosy evil despot.  It's probably why the 2nd Commandment warns against earthly and subconscious images, it leads to misunderstandings and conflict.  This topic might have been slightly better if it had been 'Searching for Paradise' at least the clue is in the word.  The mystic's way tends to be towards an individual approach and a dedication to a method of inner revelation.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27766 on: March 30, 2018, 04:25:53 PM »
Did you wave at Rhiannon travelling in the opposite direction; and perhaps stop to wonder, why ?
What are you trying to say here?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27767 on: March 30, 2018, 04:27:10 PM »
I read about Pope Francis's views on Hell last night; what he says is in keeping with most current Christian thought.

It shows that belief is not static. We learn new things all the time. Only diehard traditionalists are afraid to move forward.


Vatican says no

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596919


torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27768 on: March 30, 2018, 04:32:17 PM »
What are you trying to say here?

Something in your experience changed you, changed the way you see the world.  Something similar has happened to lead Rhiannon in the reverse direction, she too has become changed.  We need to be wary about using our personal experience as a guide to fundamental true-for-everyone truths.  We all have our personal experience of life, and none is more valid than another.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27769 on: March 30, 2018, 04:37:58 PM »
I'm quite happy that I have experienced the external God. because I know the difference between a guess and conviction.

While that may be very nice for you, it doesn't constitute a way to distinguish your convictions on the matter from other (contradictory) ones held by other people - so we're back to guessing...
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27770 on: March 30, 2018, 04:40:10 PM »
Something in your experience changed you, changed the way you see the world.  Something similar has happened to lead Rhiannon in the reverse direction, she too has become changed.  We need to be wary about using our personal experience as a guide to fundamental true-for-everyone truths.  We all have our personal experience of life, and none is more valid than another.
I think the difference is that something came into my experience and left Rhiannon's. I come to the Father through Jesus, what I see through a glass darkly I shall see in full that is amazingly what we are all heirs to.

I know you think Rhiannon's is more valid than mine anyway.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27771 on: March 30, 2018, 04:41:44 PM »
While that may be very nice for you, it doesn't constitute a way to distinguish your convictions on the matter from other (contradictory) ones held by other people - so we're back to guessing...
I know I am not guessing. I am interested in these contradictory ones supposedly held. Can you give an example?

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27772 on: March 30, 2018, 04:42:58 PM »
O.K. Back to philosophical materialism then.

Offence is all in the mind of the antitheist since Minchin is obviously having an indignant, all be it, lucrative rant.
Avoidance of all other points noted.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27773 on: March 30, 2018, 04:44:25 PM »
I know I am not guessing. I am interested in these contradictory ones supposedly held. Can you give an example?

Yes:-

I know you think Rhiannon's is more valid than mine anyway.

How do you propose we decide?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27774 on: March 30, 2018, 04:45:59 PM »
I think the difference is that something came into my experience and left Rhiannon's. I come to the Father through Jesus, what I see through a glass darkly I shall see in full that is amazingly what we are all heirs to.

I know you think Rhiannon's is more valid than mine anyway.

And that is lying about what torridon said.