Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3866439 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27775 on: March 30, 2018, 04:46:41 PM »
Avoidance of all other points noted.
what points? I have no trouble with bad language.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27776 on: March 30, 2018, 04:55:27 PM »
I think the difference is that something came into my experience and left Rhiannon's. I come to the Father through Jesus, what I see through a glass darkly I shall see in full that is amazingly what we are all heirs to.

I know you think Rhiannon's is more valid than mine anyway.

No, I wouldn't put it that way.  But I see appropriate humility in her acceptance that her personal experience, is just that, personal experience.  Can you reconcile your experience with that of a devotee of Shiva, or that of a Sufi or that of a Hare Krishna ?  They all share varieties of similar experience but not quite the same so how do you explain the diversity if there is only one singular god ?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27777 on: March 30, 2018, 05:11:59 PM »
No, I wouldn't put it that way.  But I see appropriate humility in her acceptance that her personal experience, is just that, personal experience.  Can you reconcile your experience with that of a devotee of Shiva, or that of a Sufi or that of a Hare Krishna ?  They all share varieties of similar experience but not quite the same so how do you explain the diversity if there is only one singular god ?
I don't think I need to reconcile my experience with any of them. Unlike you I am not committed to viewing their experience or my own as universal mental abberation. while I recognise their spirituality I am not motivated by it myself spiritually or philosophically although the sufis are quite fascinating.

Weirdly enough though a colleague who I worked with once specifically sought me out to say she had met one of the hindu gods. I was pretty interested in that and not to my recollection dismissive.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27778 on: March 30, 2018, 05:17:28 PM »
And that is lying about what torridon said.
Change the fucking record.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27779 on: March 30, 2018, 05:18:03 PM »
Change the fucking record.
I will when you stop lying.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27780 on: March 30, 2018, 05:19:11 PM »
I will when you stop lying.
Change the fucking record.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27781 on: March 30, 2018, 05:23:04 PM »
Change the fucking record.
Why should I, given you continually lie?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27782 on: March 30, 2018, 05:28:26 PM »
Change the fucking record.

What I don't get about you is that you claim to be a follower of Jesus yet are prolific in the use of the unpleasant 'f' word. I wonder if he would endorse your use of it, if he was around today?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27783 on: March 30, 2018, 05:31:20 PM »
What I don't get about you is that you claim to be a follower of Jesus yet are prolific in the use of the unpleasant 'f' word. I wonder if he would endorse your use of it, if he was around today?
Where does Jesus say that using the word fucking is bad?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27784 on: March 30, 2018, 05:32:35 PM »
Where does Jesus say that using the word fucking is bad?

So you think he would approve of its use?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27785 on: March 30, 2018, 05:33:05 PM »
I don't think I need to reconcile my experience with any of them. Unlike you I am not committed to viewing their experience or my own as universal mental abberation.

That's another misrepresenation.  It's a pity you can't seem to get a post out without resorting to some or other strawman.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27786 on: March 30, 2018, 05:36:11 PM »
So you think he would approve of its use?
You think he wouldn't, so up to you to make the case.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27787 on: March 30, 2018, 05:38:17 PM »
You think he wouldn't, so up to you to make the case.

It isn't a pleasant word and related to sexual intercourse, so he might have objected to it, but of course I could be wrong. 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27788 on: March 30, 2018, 05:46:11 PM »
It isn't a pleasant word and related to sexual intercourse, so he might have objected to it, but of course I could be wrong.
Are you saying that words tfar you find unpleasant are something that Jesus would gave wanted people to stop saying? And that Jesus thought people refer to sex? After all sexual intercoyrse refers to sex, so do you think saying sexual intercourse would be something Jesus would object to?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 05:51:32 PM by Nearly Sane »

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27789 on: March 30, 2018, 05:58:54 PM »
I don't think I need to reconcile my experience with any of them.

You do actually. If you're going to claim that your experience accesses an objective truth then you do need to reconcile it with other people's experiences if they also make that claim and do not completely agree with you about the 'truth'. You only have a limited number of options.

You can claim that they are (to some extent) mistaken or that their 'truth' is only partial but then you have to give us a way to evaluate these sorts of claims - which you have been unable to do. You can try to dilute the details enough so that you can claim that they are aspects of the same thing but then you will just be dismissing a different set of personal experiences from those people who will claim that they know - with all the certainty that you have expressed - that they are right and others are just wrong.

Unlike you I am not committed to viewing their experience or my own as universal mental abberation.

Which is one way that actually works, is self-consistent, and treats everybody's claims equally. However, simply genuinely mistaken about a strong experience will do.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27790 on: March 30, 2018, 06:27:55 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
I'm quite happy that I have experienced the external God.

I don’t doubt it, just as the chap next to you is quite happy he experienced leprechauns. The problem each of you has though absent either of you offering a method to test your remarkable claims is that there’s no reason for anyone else to take either one seriously – and certainly not to take one such claim more seriously than the other.

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…because I know the difference between a guess and conviction.

What is the difference? So far, all you’ve suggested is that you’re convinced that your guess is a good one. So what?

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I didn't believe and now I do. I have been changed from one thing into another. I have travelled from A to B.

How lovely for you. So has the leprechaunist. So?

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As I said I was gifted a linguistic framework in which I describe my experience.

I’d ask for you money back if I were you given your semi-literacy, but in any case claiming to have been “gifted” something is begging the question (again). You’ll need to demonstrate that there’s something to do the gifting if you want anyone else to take the claim seriously.

Quote
Other language frameworks are inadequate for the purpose as are other philosophies.

For you no doubt, as for that matter “other language frameworks are inadequate for the purpose as are other philosophies” for some others when the purpose is leprechaunism.

Given how poor your use of language and how inadequate your grasp of philosophy by the way, do you not think you’re on awfully thin ice relying on them to assert universal truths of objective “facts”?

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I know I am not guessing.

No, you’re guessing that you’re not guessing. We know that because you have neither reason nor evidence to support the claim to knowledge.

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what points?

Try this one for starters:

Like I said, the burden of proof still has you foxed I see. If I said that I heard a sound from my garage the other day so it's a trapped dragon that made it you'd (presumably) say something like:

1. I don't doubt that you had an experience of some kind - you heard a sound.

2. Your reaching for the explanation "dragon" though has neither logic nor evidence to support it, and so fits exactly the characteristics of a guess.

3. Other (though less thrilling) explanations are moreover available - maybe a tin of paint fell off a shelf for example.

Imagine then that I replied:   

"No, if you are saying that my interpretation is indistinguishable from a guess then it's jolly well down to you to back up that positive assertion.

Come on then hotshot."   

What kind of twat would you think me to be?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 06:39:59 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27791 on: March 30, 2018, 06:30:53 PM »
Floo,

Quote
What I don't get about you is that you claim to be a follower of Jesus yet are prolific in the use of the unpleasant 'f' word. I wonder if he would endorse your use of it, if he was around today?

Given his relentless scatology I'm sensing a difficult potty training experience.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27792 on: March 30, 2018, 06:32:59 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
Change the fucking record.

Perhaps if you (finally) stopped lying there'd be no need for the record at all.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 06:39:18 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27793 on: March 31, 2018, 12:35:59 AM »
After the latest selection of Vlad's posts, I am beginning to wonder whether to look forward to another SotS post!!! :)
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27794 on: March 31, 2018, 08:51:46 AM »
Don't be absurd. In the absence of a method to distinguish a statement from a guess, it is indistinguishable from a guess, that is what indistinguishable means: Not able to be identified as different or distinct.
But I guess that means life is a guess. That you are guessing that I am wrong about my experience.
But life isn't one big guess or sequence of guesses. Things are what they are.

It looks as if you and Hillside see the universe as a series of arguments. That must therefore be a guess. But experience is not a guess.

You and Hillside have therefore arrived at the wager. Here is someone myself who has made a commitment, who has taken a punt rather than stayed as you both have in the state of argument, the state of guess....
This person who faces you has taken the punt and found God to be fulfilled.

Now, as far as you are concerned, are you going to take the punt or are you going to take the punt on remaining in the state of guess or are you going to take a punt on something else?

The attraction of the world of guess.....that life is an argument is if you are self defined by your ability to argue...into or out of.....any position......then why give up such ego reinforcement?

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27795 on: March 31, 2018, 10:41:19 AM »
Don't be absurd. In the absence of a method to distinguish a statement from a guess, it is indistinguishable from a guess, that is what indistinguishable means: Not able to be identified as different or distinct.
But I guess that means life is a guess. That you are guessing that I am wrong about my experience.
But life isn't one big guess or sequence of guesses. Things are what they are.

It looks as if you and Hillside see the universe as a series of arguments. That must therefore be a guess. But experience is not a guess.

I really have no idea what you're trying to say here. We can use logic, reasoned arguments, and objective evidence about matters of objective fact and that is much better than a guess.

If you are going to interpret an internal, subjective experience as an encounter with an objectively real external entity, especially when there is no confirming objective evidence or logic, and your conclusions are contradicted by other people's interpretations of their experiences - that can be no better than a guess.

You and Hillside have therefore arrived at the wager. Here is someone myself who has made a commitment, who has taken a punt rather than stayed as you both have in the state of argument, the state of guess....
This person who faces you has taken the punt and found God to be fulfilled.

And there are countless others who've found different gods, no gods at all, thought they'd found a god then changed their minds along with all the other people who say they've been abducted by aliens, encountered ghosts, absolutely know that homeopathy works, and so on, and so on, and so on...

How are we to deal with all this rationally without trying to believe multiple contradictory things at the same time (being endlessly gullible) or demanding that there is objective evidence and/or rational arguments before we take claims of matters of fact seriously?

And all that's before we get to the glaring contradiction in your story - that your 'just and fair' god is hiding itself and its important message from most people...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27796 on: March 31, 2018, 11:12:44 AM »
No one has come up with a sensible answer as to why, if god exists, it chooses to hide in its ivory tower, its existence is a matter of faith only.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27797 on: March 31, 2018, 11:19:58 AM »
No one has come up with a sensible answer as to why, if god exists, it chooses to hide in its ivory tower, its existence is a matter of faith only.
Sounds like an opportunity for a thread Roses.
You gonna start it?

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27798 on: March 31, 2018, 11:25:30 AM »
Sounds like an opportunity for a thread Roses.
You gonna start it?

I will leave that privilege to you.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #27799 on: March 31, 2018, 11:27:48 AM »
I will leave that privilege to you.
Ok.