Searching for GOD...

[ippy]

As I've pointed out twice now, you regularly post "imo" posts without a shred of evidence or argument ("imo" is not an argument), so it's pretty rich of you to demand them from others.

Steve if anyone makes a claim or as in AB's case outrageous claims it's up to them that make these claims to back them up with something, evidence would be good starter, even better if it could be verified too.

Don't end up like A B, if you can avoid it, he's a bit like a tram he's on rails and can't go either way he's stuck, all the way back to the depot, nothing new.   

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But 'weather' (sic) forecasting is more reliable these days anyway (what with all those sciency satellites whizzing around).

You still aren't getting it: if, for the sake of argument, there was no Christian Bible then whatever religious tropes did appear wouldn't contain the same details as does 'Christianity'. An obvious example of this are the religions of the South American cultures that emerged independently over the same time period as Christianity was ruling the roosted in Europe - and yet the Aztecs never mentioned Jesus.   

I'd have though that observation better fitted your own position.

So you don't 'get' thought experiments - I think we know that now.

I think perhaps you should take your own advice, Vlad, so that in future you can recognise very obvious thought experiments instead of confusing them with claims.

If there is anything which carries no reason then it is this thought experiment you have gone over the top with a flag for Hillside's sake.

If there is a point about thought experiments here it's that antitheists only allow themselves those that are the most ridiculous pieces of wish fulfilment.

Free thought? my arse!

[Nearly Sane]

Steve if anyone makes a claim or as in AB's case outrageous claims it's up to them that make these claims to back them up with something, evidence would be good starter, even better if it could be verified too.

Don't end up like A B, if you can avoid it, he's a bit like a tram he's on rails and can't go either way he's stuck, all the way back to the depot, nothing new.   

Regards ippy

Doesn't look to me that Steve is saying that people shouldn't provide evidence, rather that if someone asks for evidence for claims, then when they are asked for evidence of claims they make, it would be reasonable for them to do so.

[Stranger]

But why do you want to do it? Either it's for a reason (in which case it's an influencing factor after all) or it's for no reason at all (in which case it can only be random).

But why do you want to do it?

BECAUSE I WANT TO

So - edited out the detail of the question and then totally ignored all of it in a large font and capital letters.

Avoidance writ large.   

[Alan Burns]

Bolding is no substitute for thinking things through Alan.  There must a reason why a desire forms, otherwise it is random.

I chose bold because I had the freedom to do it
I chose a big font because I had the freedom to do it.
I also had the freedom to choose what size to make it.
All chosen by me - not the deterministic uncontrollable forces of nature.

[BeRational]

I chose bold because I had the freedom to do it
I chose a big font because I had the freedom to do it.
I also had the freedom to choose what size to make it.
All chosen by me - not the deterministic uncontrollable forces of nature.

How do you know?

It would feel exactly the same is the point.

[Alan Burns]

Of course you can't choose what you want. How would you make the choice - based on what you want to want? Then how would you make that choice - based on what you want to want to want?

Are you getting the problem here?

No problem here.
My wants come from the conscious will of the human soul.  The buck stops there.

[Alan Burns]

Then this 'want' is an influencing factor that precedes any act of choosing and, as such, your choice is determined - even if you prefer to pretend that it wasn't.

I never claimed my choice is not determined - just that it is not entirely pre determined.  The conscious will of the human soul is the determining factor - not the uncontrollable forces of nature.

[Alan Burns]

BECAUSE I WANT TO


So - edited out the detail of the question and then totally ignored all of it in a large font and capital letters.

Avoidance writ large.   

And what is it that is responsible for the editing, ignoring and avoidance?  Is it just the natural uncontrollable electro chemical activity in my brain cells?  I think not.

[Gordon]

And what is it that is responsible for the editing, ignoring and avoidance?  Is it just the natural uncontrollable electro chemical activity in my brain cells?  I think not.

I think so, probably.

[Stranger]

And what is it that is responsible for the editing, ignoring and avoidance?  Is it just the natural uncontrollable electro chemical activity in my brain cells?  I think not.

I think most people who have paid any attention at all to this thread understand that you don't think that. However, that is what the evidence suggests and you have provided no evidence and no reasoning to support your assertions to the contrary.

Additionally, for reasons that have been explained endless times and which you keep ignoring, there is nothing in principle to be gained from postulating a non-physical 'soul' - which would still logically only operate deterministically or with some randomness.

Will you ever have the basic honesty and courage to drop the avoidance and evasion and  try to tackle that logic, or at least have the courage to admit you can't?

[torridon]

I chose bold because I had the freedom to do it
I chose a big font because I had the freedom to do it.
I also had the freedom to choose what size to make it.
All chosen by me - not the deterministic uncontrollable forces of nature.

yes but these choices all arise out of something prior.  You were responding to a prior post, you were bolding up because of frustration that you aren't getting your message heard.  Our state of mind in the present moment always derives from the past and we cannot change the past.

[SusanDoris]

I chose bold because I had the freedom to do it
I chose a big font because I had the freedom to do it.
I also had the freedom to choose what size to make it.
All chosen by me - not the deterministic uncontrollable forces of nature.

In my opinion, a rather petulant, childish choice.

[Stranger]

No problem here.
My wants come from the conscious will of the human soul.  The buck stops there.

That's just more avoidance. Why does the "conscious will of the human soul" (which is a totally meaningless phrase anyway) want one thing rather than another?

A choice has to be made either for reasons or not. The only kind of process that can produce an output that doesn't depend on any inputs is one that is generating randomness.

[Stranger]

All chosen by me - not the deterministic uncontrollable forces of nature.

False dichotomy dressed up in prejudicial language.     

[SusanDoris]

AB

As a matter of passing interest, what are your definitions of 'determined' and 'pre-determined'? How do you, in your mind, distinguish between them?

[SteveH]

YAWN!!!!! Where the sky fairy is concerned there is NO evidence to support its existence, so I am quite right in asking AB for it.

And I'm quite right in asking you for it when you pontificate.  YAWN!!!!! is the response I would expect from a 12-year-old.

[ippy]

And I'm quite right in asking you for it when you pontificate.  YAWN!!!!! is the response I would expect from a 12-year-old.

The Sky Fairy is just as likely to exist as this god idea that an ever decreasing amount of Europeans believe in and there is as much evidence supporting the Sky Fairy as there is supporting this not unusual but strange idea of this god you speak of, it's a good comparison, that I'm sure you understand, L R's post doesn't require evidence in the circumstances it was presented.

Regards ippy
 

[ippy]

Don't forget Dr V C Ramachandaron, he would do your thinking on a lot of things good, that's if you manage to open up enough and start to read or listen.

Hope this does give you some help Alan, ippy.

[Sebastian Toe]

It is your own assertion that we do not get to choose what we want, presumably driven by your assumption that everything which happens is pre determined by chains of physical cause and effect.

My ability to consciously choose what I want to do is demonstrably real, and can't be ascribed entirely to the inevitable consequences of physical chains of cause and effect.

There you go Alan. your response indicates that it is all driven by the naturally occurring deterministic events in your brain cells which can only be defined by physical reactions to previous events - controlled entirely by the laws of material science! No soul required.

[Alan Burns]

AB

As a matter of passing interest, what are your definitions of 'determined' and 'pre-determined'? How do you, in your mind, distinguish between them?

pre determined is unavoidable consequence, such as knee jerk reaction.
determined is a consciously chosen option in real time, such as posting on this forum.

[Stranger]

determined is a consciously chosen option in real time, such as posting on this forum.

Redefining terms to suit yourself again.

In fact, the discussion here has been about whether our choices are made deterministically, in other words whether our minds are deterministic systems and in that context there is no difference between determined and predetermined (although predetermined is usually associated with fatalism, rather than determinism).

Your frequent claims that you don't deny that our choices are determined but that they are determined by "the conscious will of the human soul" either represent a total misunderstanding of what is being said to you or a blatant evasion tactic.

[SusanDoris]

AB

#28196  explains it exactly.

your idea of pre-determined is evidently an acceptance of the idea that events, thoughts, etc etc are already in place waiting for us to sort of catch up with them. This idea is of course 100% complete rubbish.

As Stranger says, you re-define words to suit yourself - what huge arrogance that is.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Just read Christopher Hitchens’ memoir “Mortality” on a flight last night (very moving by the way) where he says something that encapsulates well AB’s central error: he thinks he has a body, whereas in fact he is a body.

Just a thought.

[ippy]

Just read Christopher Hitchens’ memoir “Mortality” on a flight last night (very moving by the way) where he says something that encapsulates well AB’s central error: he thinks he has a body, whereas in fact he is a body.

Just a thought.

He can't let go and as it appears to me he can't face it to be seen to let go, I don't think he's lying to himself, he may be wrestling.

It is a large investment he's made in his lifestyle, not an easy one for him to resolve, I doubt he'll let it show but unless he's completely brain dead, which I don't think he is, I think collectively this thread has at the very least made him waver.

A very sad case.

Just my thoughts Blue.