Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Just read Christopher Hitchens’ memoir “Mortality” on a flight last night (very moving by the way) where he says something that encapsulates well AB’s central error: he thinks he has a body, whereas in fact he is a body.

Just a thought.

The body is an amazing machine comprising lots of physical complexity built up from material elements, all of which are replaceable, and indeed do get replaced several times over during a lifetime.  I am sure we have discussed the "Trigger's Broom" syndrome previously, but the fact remains that, in Dell boy's famous words, after several replacement heads and shafts, "Its not the same bloody broom then is it?".  So what provides the continuity of "you" in a body after all the physical parts are replaced?

[floo]

The body is an amazing machine comprising lots of physical complexity built up from material elements, all of which are replaceable, and indeed do get replaced several times over during a lifetime.  I am sure we have discussed the "Trigger's Broom" syndrome previously, but the fact remains that, in Dell boy's famous words, after several replacement heads and shafts, "Its not the same bloody broom then is it?".  So what provides the continuity of "you" in a body after all the physical parts are replaced?

Animals of other species have amazing bodies too all down to nature.

[Alan Burns]

It is a large investment he's made in his lifestyle, not an easy one for him to resolve, I doubt he'll let it show but unless he's completely brain dead, which I don't think he is, I think collectively this thread has at the very least made him waver.

No I have not wavered, because nothing I have read comes close to casting any doubt about my Christian faith.  The problem is that people who try to justify their non belief have not been able to take that very important first step in faith, which ultimately leads to greater understanding about our relationship with God.  I realised some time ago that a single lifetime is not enough to learn what there is to know about God and His love for us.  My journey in faith continues each day, giving me greater understanding about God's wonderful gift of life.

[floo]

No I have not wavered, because nothing I have read comes close to casting any doubt about my Christian faith.  The problem is that people who try to justify their non belief have not been able to take that very important first step in faith, which ultimately leads to greater understanding about our relationship with God.  I realised some time ago that a single lifetime is not enough to learn what there is to know about God and His love for us.  My journey in faith continues each day, giving me greater understanding about God's wonderful gift of life.

AB I tried to take that first step in faith as a kid, but as I have said boringly often, it didn't work for me. You are content with your perception of faith, which is fine, but as you have never provided one shred of verifiable evidence to prove it is anymore than a mere belief, it isn't surprising many of us can't see it your way.

[SusanDoris]

Bit of a tangent here but relevant I think.
Last night I listened to most of an interview which Stephen Nolan did with a chap called Russ something who is very much involved with coaching children's football teams and obviously encouraging the best and right approaches and attitudes in the many people involved. He also has terminal cancer. I missed the beginning of the interview but at the age of 37 he has only a period of comparatively few months to live.  There is apparently much interest in and support for him on the social media.

The reason I mention this here is that he was asked by Stephen Nolan how he and his wife had  told their children, aged 6 and 7. The answer was that they had said Daddy will be going  to heaven much sooner than usual. He then went on to say that the children had come up with various questions about heaven. I was saddened by this because the parents have now set up an idea in the children's minds, at a stage when everything is taken literally, that there is a place called heaven. That is one thing that Brendan Cox did not do after Jo Cox was murdered. Even though his children were slightly older, why fob children off with  an unnecessary idea. Russ was asked if he believed in God and his answer was that he is open to the concept. Personally, I hope that the children do not spend years of their lifves believing something for which zero evidence exists. It is going to be hard enough for them to cope with anyway, but to blur the issue with a false sort of hope is a mistake I'd say.

Edited to remove an extra l

[Stranger]

No I have not wavered, because nothing I have read comes close to casting any doubt about my Christian faith.

As I said before, total certainty, without evidence or reasoning is neither persuasive nor attractive - just pitiable.

The problem is that people who try to justify their non belief...

Non-belief doesn't need a justification.

...have not been able to take that very important first step in faith, which ultimately leads to greater understanding about our relationship with God.  I realised some time ago that a single lifetime is not enough to learn what there is to know about God and His love for us.  My journey in faith continues each day, giving me greater understanding about God's wonderful gift of life.

Have you found out why your god is so well hidden yet? Why is blind faith required? After all, as far as objective evidence or reasoning is concerned, it looks exactly as if there is no god at all...   

[torridon]

The body is an amazing machine comprising lots of physical complexity built up from material elements, all of which are replaceable, and indeed do get replaced several times over during a lifetime.  I am sure we have discussed the "Trigger's Broom" syndrome previously, but the fact remains that, in Dell boy's famous words, after several replacement heads and shafts, "Its not the same bloody broom then is it?".  So what provides the continuity of "you" in a body after all the physical parts are replaced?

One word answer to that is : memory; or replication; sorry two words;  or should we include reproduction? Damnit that's three words now.  Still, a lot simpler than 'souls', razors and all that.

[torridon]

No I have not wavered, because nothing I have read comes close to casting any doubt about my Christian faith. 

No doubt that is related to why you come across as so arrogant and ignorant to others.  Some doubt is good, it is part of being human.  You have to be able to engage with the experience and testimony of others; we all learn from each other.

[ippy]

No I have not wavered, because nothing I have read comes close to casting any doubt about my Christian faith.  The problem is that people who try to justify their non belief have not been able to take that very important first step in faith, which ultimately leads to greater understanding about our relationship with God.  I realised some time ago that a single lifetime is not enough to learn what there is to know about God and His love for us.  My journey in faith continues each day, giving me greater understanding about God's wonderful gift of life.

Like I said, I don't expect you to admit it, it'll take time for that, believing almost anything without evidence?
 
Well Alan what else is there to say, I can make up anything I like in my imagination, we can all do that, lots of people make a good living out of making things up, you could possibly do the same, you've certainly got the imagination bit already well established. 

All of the necessary regards needed in your case in particular Alan, ippy.

[ippy]

The body is an amazing machine comprising lots of physical complexity built up from material elements, all of which are replaceable, and indeed do get replaced several times over during a lifetime.  I am sure we have discussed the "Trigger's Broom" syndrome previously, but the fact remains that, in Dell boy's famous words, after several replacement heads and shafts, "Its not the same bloody broom then is it?".  So what provides the continuity of "you" in a body after all the physical parts are replaced?

The you is inside your head in between your ears, irreparably damage it, the brain, the you is gone, my in the past lovely mother in law has advance dementia, she's no longer in there so we lose her twice, your little man at the controls is insulting to my intelligence, I know you're so determined to convince yourself this god idea of yours really does exist, it rides above your need to insult, but it is insulting none the less, I keep telling you to pursue Dr VC Ramacharendon, in your case you really do need some help with your understanding of the brain and how it works, you've nothing to lose but everything to gain looking into his works.

Much needed kindness to you and the poor yours Alan, ippy     

[Alan Burns]

One word answer to that is : memory; or replication; sorry two words;  or should we include reproduction? Damnit that's three words now.  Still, a lot simpler than 'souls', razors and all that.

Memory in a human brain is presumably defined by the physical state of lots of brain cells.  The memory we experience has to perceive the content of these brain cells, not just react to them as happens inside a computer.   And this entity of perception is ....?

I do not see how the continuity we experience as individuals has any relation to replication or reproduction.

Just going back to the example of Trigger's broom, the only thing which gives continuity to the constantly changing broom is Trigger himself, as the owner/user of the broom.  And the obvious thing which can give continuity to our human body machine is its owner/user - the human soul.

[Stranger]

Memory in a human brain is presumably defined by the physical state of lots of brain cells.  The memory we experience has to perceive the content of these brain cells, not just react to them as happens inside a computer.   And this entity of perception is ....?

...fictional and unnecessary. As has been pointed out before: something has to be self-aware. In fact, pretty much everything you've said recently has been dealt with many times before. What is the point of the mindless repetition?

You can't back up anything you assert with evidence or reasoning and you haven't even got the courage to acknowledge the argument that totally undermines your "not deterministic and not random" nonsense.

I do not see how the continuity we experience as individuals has any relation to replication or reproduction.

Just going back to the example of Trigger's broom, the only thing which gives continuity to the constantly changing broom is Trigger himself, as the owner/user of the broom.  And the obvious thing which can give continuity to our human body machine is its owner/user - the human soul.

More evidence and logic free assertions. What gives continuity is information.

[SteveH]

The body is an amazing machine comprising lots of physical complexity built up from material elements, all of which are replaceable, and indeed do get replaced several times over during a lifetime.  I am sure we have discussed the "Trigger's Broom" syndrome previously, but the fact remains that, in Dell boy's famous words, after several replacement heads and shafts, "Its not the same bloody broom then is it?".  So what provides the continuity of "you" in a body after all the physical parts are replaced?

In the case of people, memory. In the case of Trigger's broom, the fact that the handle and the head were never replaced at the same time (which also applies to us: our bodies renew themselves completely every few years, but not all at once).

[Alan Burns]

Well Alan what else is there to say, I can make up anything I like in my imagination, we can all do that, lots of people make a good living out of making things up, you could possibly do the same, you've certainly got the imagination bit already well established. 

And what drives our imagination?
What perceives the content of our imagination?
What defines our imagination?

[Alan Burns]

More evidence and logic free assertions. What gives continuity is information.

But information means nothing until it is perceived.
What perceives information?

[Stranger]

But information means nothing until it is perceived.
What perceives information?

That's what brains do (according to all the evidence).

[ippy]

And what drives our imagination?
What perceives the content of our imagination?
What defines our imagination?

Dr Ramachanderon'll bring you up to speed on that idea of yours, it's certainly not an imaginary Mr magic placing an imaginary little man at the wheel.

Still wishing everything comes out well in the end for you Alan, regards ippy.

 

[Gordon]

And what drives our imagination?
What perceives the content of our imagination?
What defines our imagination?

It's just biology, Alan: it lets us imagine all sorts of stuff, include stuff that isn't real (like Gods and Leprechauns).

[Alan Burns]

That's what brains do (according to all the evidence).

That is a presumption based on the absence of anything spiritual.

The fact remains that there is no physical explanation for how information (or anything else) can be consciously perceived.

[Alan Burns]

It's just biology, Alan: it lets us imagine all sorts of stuff, include stuff that isn't real (like Gods and Leprechauns).

Biology explains nothing about perception, or imagination.  It is a study of the material properties of living things - nothing more.

[Stranger]

That is a presumption based on the absence of anything spiritual magic.

FIFY.

The fact remains that there is no physical explanation for how information (or anything else) can be consciously perceived.

"This is 'ard to explain, I dunno, it must be magic".

You keep on asserting that things can't be explained by the physical but you have no actual alternative - just baseless and incoherent claims of magic.

[Gordon]

That is a presumption based on the absence of anything spiritual.

You'd do better, Alan, to actually demonstrate the presence of anything spiritual rather than just asserting it.

[Gordon]

Biology explains nothing about perception, or imagination.  It is a study of the material properties of living things - nothing more.

Yet without working biology there is no perception or imagination: just as well we have brains then.

[Alan Burns]

Yet without working biology there is no perception or imagination: just as well we have brains then.

Biology only explains half the story.  I would agree that it is an essential component of our ability to perceive, but it does not provide any explantation of what it is that perceives.

[Alan Burns]

Dr Ramachanderon'll bring you up to speed on that idea of yours, it's certainly not an imaginary Mr magic placing an imaginary little man at the wheel.

Just come across a critic of Dr Ramachanderon's ideas about consciousness from Raymond Tallis:

"The trouble begins when the neurologist turns philosopher and tries to use these insights to get closer to "what makes us human." He suggests that such cross-wiring underpins both humans' ability to enjoy metaphors and artists' capacity to create novel connections—an assertion that has scarcely any research to back it up. (What little has been done depends on laughably simplistic models of how metaphors and creativity really work.) Likewise, his explanation of how we became speaking animals has scarcely a toe-hold on empirical data."

In essence, any attempt to explain human conscious awareness in terms of the reactions in material particles is doomed to failure, because there can be no material explanation for human conscious awareness.