Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3884202 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28500 on: May 27, 2018, 03:26:18 PM »
the same thing that interprets sensory information in the antelope.  When it sees a lion approaching, it recognises  it, it interprets the information and realises it is in danger.  Perception did not evolve out of nowhere with the arrival of humans, it has roots stretching way back into deep evolutionary time.   We perceive because we inherited perceptual systems from our ancestors.
But what is perception?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28501 on: May 27, 2018, 03:46:17 PM »
But what is perception?
Perception is he ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.  Following from this is a percept or a mental concept that is developed as a consequence of the process of perception.  I think you will have to concede that perception in varying degrees is available to other life forms as Torridon is explaining.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28502 on: May 27, 2018, 03:49:15 PM »
Name one other subject or belief taught to young children which totally lacks any objective evidence.
When we socialise children we often teach them from a philosophical perspective, to give other children the benefit of the doubt, see their actions in a good light in order to foster co-operation and harmony even if they lack any objective evidence of the other child's thoughts or intentions.

We teach children to have faith and belief in themselves to achieve an outcome, even if there is a lack of objective evidence that they have the capability to achieve the desired outcome.

Beliefs can be very useful tools in motivating certain behaviours.
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Remember that myths, fairy tales, fictional stories are  told as stories. If a child asked, 'Is that story true?' The answer would never be yes. What a waste of their valuable time if they spend any of it believing in any god/god/s, resurrections, flying horses, totally world floods, etc. If their 'shared understanding' includes a totally faith belief that the subject of that belief is testable and objective, then that is not the best understanding.
A lot of the religious stories have a lesson in them - I don't think it's a waste of time to try and understand the meaning of the story. For example, the Quran (Ch3 v 7) states something along the lines of that some of its verses are straight-forward in meaning and some are allegorical and the meaning cannot be known for sure, and only Allah knows which verses are which. I've found this has been the basis for many interesting philosophical discussions with my children.

Some people may consider it a waste of time but no doubt some people also consider many TV shows, video games and social media platforms a waste of time but children continue to be exposed to things that some of us find a waste of time.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28503 on: May 27, 2018, 04:01:29 PM »
Gabriella

I have listened through your post carefully and was starting a detailed response, but it is difficult to pick out direct points in your responses which respond to mine.
In my opinion, therefore, you have, as it seems you often do, avoided a clear answer and used a lot of words to produce a sort of blurred one.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28504 on: May 27, 2018, 04:13:15 PM »
It doesn't matter a fig to me whether you agree about very young children's inability to reason, in the science of psychology it's accepted that the ability to reason is, on average, acquired by most children at around seven years of age.
I agree it is accepted that the ability to reason is, on average, acquired around 7 years of age.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brain-waves/201708/how-children-s-brains-learn-reason

By the way, using the phrase "I agree" is just a normal part of discourse on this forum. It doesn't matter a fig to me whether it matters a fig to you whether I agree about very young children's inability to reason  ;)

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The various religion based organisations are well aware of this vulnerability of very young children and make a pretty obvious point of grabbing them at this age to enable themselves to get in first mindful of obtaining as many new recruits as they can and of course this like anything else to do with psychology it works on percentages, ie, not every potential recruiting attempt is that obviously successful.
My impression as a Muslim whose children go to a school that has assemblies of a Christian nature, is that parents seem to get in first - in terms of religion/ non-religion, social values, culture etc

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The children thinking for themselves after the more vulnerable age over seven years, on average, must be coloured by these attempts to indoctrinate them at the earlier age.
Presumably everyone's thinking is coloured by their early experiences of "indoctrination" in all kinds of areas, not just religion. That just seems to be how social creatures, such as humans, develop in societies.

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I very much doubt the phrase people believe this or that is used very often when teaching about religion to the young, so it might be best if any religious teachings other than where it would be so obviously daft to leave it out of a history lesson were left until after all children have reached the age of seven? Then no organisation could justifiably be accused of attempting to indoctrinate any one.

If teaching under sevens to think for themselves can be considered to be indoctrination, well I could easily live with that.
When we teach children morals, we don't tend to use the phrase "people believe this or that" - I don't see the problem with "indoctrinating" children in this way about cultural or social values or religion - children tend to figure out the concept of beliefs and opinions and individualism as they get older.

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Whatever you think about differing religions being divisive or not I think it blindingly obvious that it would help to make the world a far better place for all of us if religion was flung out of any schooling and all of our children went to secular schools where we could all grow up together make lifetime friends ect rather than the shabby alternative option of selective schooling.
I would have to disagree. I am all for selective schooling though I am not that bothered about whether the schools are secular or religious. I want a choice of who my children mix with and I would prefer if they mixed with children who have broadly similar aspirations and values to the values I am teaching my children, so if that means schools excluding children who don't fit their criteria, I am fine with that.

Your description of lifelong friendships formed in secular schools sounds naive - are you suggesting that children at secular schools don't bully each other? 

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28505 on: May 27, 2018, 04:26:50 PM »
Gabriella

I have listened through your post carefully and was starting a detailed response, but it is difficult to pick out direct points in your responses which respond to mine.
In my opinion, therefore, you have, as it seems you often do, avoided a clear answer and used a lot of words to produce a sort of blurred one.
Susan

In your original response, which I responded to, some of your quotes were in the wrong place and it was very muddled, but I managed to disentangle your responses.

The forum decided to get rid of the nested quotes function, and I believe you were one of the people who complained that you did not like quotes nested in quotes as it was difficult for you to understand the thread when Synthetic Dave read quotes nested in quotes. Hence, after disentangling your incorrect use of the quote function, I did not go to the additional trouble of nesting a quote of my original point  in a quote of your response, when i wrote out my responses to your points. I did reference the subject matter we were discussing. I have no control over your changing preferences for nested quotes. I notice you do not seem to have brought this issue up in relation to other posts that don't contain nested quotes. 

In my opinion, therefore, you have, as you often do, given up thinking and responding rationally and let your bias dictate what you post on here. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28506 on: May 27, 2018, 04:39:15 PM »
I agree it is accepted that the ability to reason is, on average, acquired around 7 years of age.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brain-waves/201708/how-children-s-brains-learn-reason

By the way, using the phrase "I agree" is just a normal part of discourse on this forum. It doesn't matter a fig to me whether it matters a fig to you whether I agree about very young children's inability to reason  ;)
My impression as a Muslim whose children go to a school that has assemblies of a Christian nature, is that parents seem to get in first - in terms of religion/ non-religion, social values, culture etc
Presumably everyone's thinking is coloured by their early experiences of "indoctrination" in all kinds of areas, not just religion. That just seems to be how social creatures, such as humans, develop in societies.
When we teach children morals, we don't tend to use the phrase "people believe this or that" - I don't see the problem with "indoctrinating" children in this way about cultural or social values or religion - children tend to figure out the concept of beliefs and opinions and individualism as they get older.
I would have to disagree. I am all for selective schooling though I am not that bothered about whether the schools are secular or religious. I want a choice of who my children mix with and I would prefer if they mixed with children who have broadly similar aspirations and values to the values I am teaching my children, so if that means schools excluding children who don't fit their criteria, I am fine with that.

Your description of lifelong friendships formed in secular schools sounds naive - are you suggesting that children at secular schools don't bully each other?

I'll get around to trying to sort out your muffled nonsense of what looks like an appraisal of my post, I'm a bit busy at the mo.

I have to say the last two lines of your post, malign or unintentionaly, they completely misrepresent my reference to secularism in our schools.

Regards ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28507 on: May 27, 2018, 04:44:13 PM »
Susan

In your original response, which I responded to, some of your quotes were in the wrong place and it was very muddled, but I managed to disentangle your responses.

The forum decided to get rid of the nested quotes function, and I believe you were one of the people who complained that you did not like quotes nested in quotes as it was difficult for you to understand the thread when Synthetic Dave read quotes nested in quotes. Hence, after disentangling your incorrect use of the quote function, I did not go to the additional trouble of nesting a quote of my original point  in a quote of your response, when i wrote out my responses to your points. I did reference the subject matter we were discussing. I have no control over your changing preferences for nested quotes. I notice you do not seem to have brought this issue up in relation to other posts that don't contain nested quotes. 

In my opinion, therefore, you have, as you often do, given up thinking and responding rationally and let your bias dictate what you post on here.

It's you Gabriella, that creates the muddle it doesn't matter who posts to you, you'll probably make up a muddle of some sort if you answer this short post of mine.

ippy

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28508 on: May 27, 2018, 05:00:12 PM »
It's you Gabriella, that creates the muddle it doesn't matter who posts to you, you'll probably make up a muddle of some sort if you answer this short post of mine.

ippy
That's exactly it, Ippy.

I wonder whether gabriella think she is scoring points or something - I really don't know, but I think I shall avoid trying to have any further discussions with her.  She seems to miss the point every time and that's a pity, I think.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28509 on: May 27, 2018, 05:45:16 PM »
I'll get around to trying to sort out your muffled nonsense of what looks like an appraisal of my post, I'm a bit busy at the mo.

I have to say the last two lines of your post, malign or unintentionaly, they completely misrepresent my reference to secularism in our schools.

Regards ippy
Sure, whenever you’re ready, feel free to post some more of your muddled nonsense about indoctrination. I asked you a question in my last 2 lines -  feel free to explain your muddled nonsense about lifelong friends.

Regards
Gabriella
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28510 on: May 27, 2018, 05:54:51 PM »
It's you Gabriella, that creates the muddle it doesn't matter who posts to you, you'll probably make up a muddle of some sort if you answer this short post of mine.

ippy
No, it’s not me. But I’m glad you are exercising your right to assert and believe whatever you like. Such a pity though that you come across as someone who is trying to score points. Hope your brain didn’t get into a muddle with my response  ;)

The smiley is for Susan’s benefit as Synthetic Dave can’t help her decipher when a poster is being ironic and she thought a smiley would be helpful. You’re welcome Susan, even if you no longer want to try to score points respond to my posts  :)
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28511 on: May 27, 2018, 06:07:37 PM »
Perception is he ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.  Following from this is a percept or a mental concept that is developed as a consequence of the process of perception.  I think you will have to concede that perception in varying degrees is available to other life forms as Torridon is explaining.
We can describe what perception achieves, but this does not define what comprises perception, or how it is achieved.  Perception is an internal property, and can't be presumed to exist just by externally observed reactions.  Indeed, no reaction is needed to achieve the perception all experience as human beings.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28512 on: May 27, 2018, 06:18:31 PM »
We can describe what perception achieves, but this does not define what comprises perception, or how it is achieved.  Perception is an internal property, and can't be presumed to exist just by externally observed reactions.  Indeed, no reaction is needed to achieve the perception all experience as human beings.

You may find this paper interesting.  Certainly it is an interesting hypothesis, which makes a lot of sense to me.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hot-thought/201411/consciousness-is-brain-process
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28513 on: May 27, 2018, 06:34:28 PM »
But what is perception?

Already covered this, see definition from wiki, also subsequent post from Ekim.  Perception is ubiquitous throughout the animal kindom, it helps us navigate the world.  I think we can safely assume that anything with eyes is having visual perception, why else have eyes ?  Likewise, ears, we can safely assume any creature with ears enjoys auditory perception.  So, when the young antelope carefully watches the lion, what is it in the antelope that is the recipient of the sensory experiences of sight and sound ?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28514 on: May 27, 2018, 06:38:11 PM »
We can describe what perception achieves, but this does not define what comprises perception, or how it is achieved.  Perception is an internal property, and can't be presumed to exist just by externally observed reactions...

Any creature that had eyes but lacked visual perception would not live long.  How long do you think a blind lion would survive ?

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28515 on: May 27, 2018, 06:56:40 PM »
You may find this paper interesting.  Certainly it is an interesting hypothesis, which makes a lot of sense to me.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hot-thought/201411/consciousness-is-brain-process

I've mentioned before a talk I went to which suggested that consciousness was the communication that goes on between different parts of the brain. Alan won't have t though.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28516 on: May 27, 2018, 07:08:51 PM »
Any creature that had eyes but lacked visual perception would not live long.  How long do you think a blind lion would survive ?
Instinctive reaction does not necessarily prove the existence of conscious perception.  Does a lion show any evidence of perceiving the beauty of a sunset?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28517 on: May 27, 2018, 07:45:15 PM »
I've mentioned before a talk I went to which suggested that consciousness was the communication that goes on between different parts of the brain. Alan won't have t though.
Transfer of information alone is not perception of information.  To achieve perception you need a conscious recipient of information.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28518 on: May 27, 2018, 07:51:31 PM »
Transfer of information alone is not perception of information.  To achieve perception you need a conscious recipient of information.

Let me guess, Alan: we need a 'soul' (as opposed to a brain).

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28519 on: May 27, 2018, 08:04:08 PM »
You may find this paper interesting.  Certainly it is an interesting hypothesis, which makes a lot of sense to me.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hot-thought/201411/consciousness-is-brain-process
Ultimately, the attempts to explain the existence of consciousness just boil down to patterns of brain activity which are assumed to generate conscious awareness, but this correlation alone does not explain how conscious awareness is achieved.  I picked up on this extract from the publication:

Support for these claims comes from their implementation in a computational model that successfully simulates many important aspects of consciousness

The truth is that computer simulation does not simulate any form of conscious awareness.  All it does is to simulate the external appearance of conscious awareness, but as I have explained previously, conscious awareness is an internal property which is not necessarily defined by externally observed reactions.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28520 on: May 27, 2018, 08:04:46 PM »
Let me guess, Alan: we need a 'soul' (as opposed to a brain).

Deep! ;D ;D ;D

Regards ippy

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28521 on: May 27, 2018, 08:05:19 PM »
Instinctive reaction does not necessarily prove the existence of conscious perception.  Does a lion show any evidence of perceiving the beauty of a sunset?

Plenty of people don’t. Are they less than human?

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28522 on: May 27, 2018, 08:19:15 PM »
No, it’s not me. But I’m glad you are exercising your right to assert and believe whatever you like. Such a pity though that you come across as someone who is trying to score points. Hope your brain didn’t get into a muddle with my response  ;)

The smiley is for Susan’s benefit as Synthetic Dave can’t help her decipher when a poster is being ironic and she thought a smiley would be helpful. You’re welcome Susan, even if you no longer want to try to score points respond to my posts  :)

You've done it again Gabriella, I remember a post I sent to you and all you did in your reply was to repeat back to me the very thing I had conveyed to you, the only difference was the composition, now you've had it explained to you the muddle you get yourself into, you obviously can't see this, so you throw your misconceptions, that for some reason you seem to think are clear thinking, on to others.

Try your best to sort it out Gabriella.

Kind regards ippy

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28523 on: May 27, 2018, 08:25:29 PM »
Let me guess, Alan: we need a 'soul' (as opposed to a brain).
The brain certainly forms an integral part of our ability to consciously perceive, and there is much information contained in our physical brain cells to be perceived.  But a physical definition of an entity which can consciously perceive this information remains elusive.

So I continue to postulate that a soul's existence can be evidenced by what it does - which is to consciously perceive and interact with the physical workings of the brain, thus freeing us from the constraints of physically defined material reactions to give us the gift of free will which we all enjoy.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28524 on: May 27, 2018, 08:27:22 PM »
The truth is that computer simulation does not simulate any form of conscious awareness.

Prepare yourself for a shock, Alan: people and computers are different things (as things stand).