Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3888578 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28625 on: June 01, 2018, 03:56:51 PM »
Gabriella,

Bitter? Resentful? Venomous? You choose.
If that's an admission about your feelings, ok. Why would I want to choose how you describe your posts.

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Re your mistake by the way, no-one suggested that AB's anthrocentrism would lead him to club a panda to death for the fun of it. The argument was instead that privileging our species over other because we supposedly have a magic "soul" whereas, say, dolphins and gorillas just "react" (yes I know it's utterly bonkers, but that's AB's position nonetheless) will tend to diminish the value we place on non-human animals. Simple and obvious enough I'd have thought.

No, the argument was that this thinking leads to killing pregnant whales, climate change etc, etc

Whereas it's perfectly obvious that human greed leads to these outcomes - and that the people who engage in activities that lead to these negative outcomes have little regard for human or animal life, unless compelled to by law, and do not seem particularly interested in stopping their activities even if they thought the people dying of climate change or pollution have souls. 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 03:59:23 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28626 on: June 01, 2018, 03:57:49 PM »
Gabriella,

And dishonest too. If you keep pretending that plain English says something else then you're lost to any reasoned discussion.

Have a nice day.
Yes you are dishonest if you are pretending that plain English says something else. And yes, then you're lost to any reasoned discussion.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28627 on: June 01, 2018, 04:34:42 PM »
Dear Blue,

There is one aspect of your posts which I just can't get my head round.

You continue to be in denial of my (and your) ability to invoke conscious acts of will which are not entirely driven by the pre determined physical brain activity over which we can have no control, by saying "that's just the way it seems", and mentioning the unfathomable complexity of the physical workings of the human brain.  But no matter how much complexity is involved, every event in our brains will be entirely determined by previous physical events in a purely materialistic scenario.

Yet you seem to refuse to contemplate the alternative view of  "that's the way it is" because this would not be compatible with your materialistic viewpoint.

But by implying that I am personally responsible for all the alleged flawed logic in my posts, you are verifying the option of "that's the way it is" in order to facilitate passing on these personal accusations to me.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28628 on: June 01, 2018, 04:43:17 PM »
AB

Quote
But by implying that I am personally responsible for all the alleged flawed logic in my posts, you are verifying the option of "that's the way it is" in order to facilitate passing on these personal accusations to me.

None of the above undoes the point that your mind is an emergent property of the brain.
Yes you in your mind seem to make choices, but these choices arise from your unconscious mind. The you in your mind is always lagging behind the brain, and of course you mind does not operate in real time. Different parts of your brain take longer to process information than others. Sight takes I think the longest, so you are always aware of the world a fraction of a second after it happens.
When you see the sky on a clear day (and you are not colour blind) it appears blue. But, of course it's not blue, it's just the way it seems in your mind.
When a tree falls in a forest, it does not make a sound, but it might seem that way if you happen to be there.

The way things seem, are not always what they are.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28629 on: June 01, 2018, 05:27:46 PM »
Yes you are dishonest if you are pretending that plain English says something else. And yes, then you're lost to any reasoned discussion.
I'm curious to know why you  appear to consider it a clever thing to do to repeat back someone's words with possibly a minor alteration. Is it because you decided to follow Sword of the Spirit's mode of working? Or did you start doing it first? It can't be because you haven't got enough words - some of your previous lengthy posts indicate this, although it seems that the number of words caused the aim of posts, whatever it was - to become almost impossible to discover as a result.
 And no, I'm not going to track back to find an example to quote.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28630 on: June 01, 2018, 05:54:56 PM »
Dear Blue,

There is one aspect of your posts which I just can't get my head round.

You continue to be in denial of my (and your) ability to invoke conscious acts of will which are not entirely driven by the pre determined physical brain activity over which we can have no control, by saying "that's just the way it seems", and mentioning the unfathomable complexity of the physical workings of the human brain.  But no matter how much complexity is involved, every event in our brains will be entirely determined by previous physical events in a purely materialistic scenario.


Seems perfectly simple to me.  Those 'conscious acts of will' all derive from something prior, they are the outcome of something.  This truth of this is manifested in the simple observation that we cannot want that which we don't want. Or even more accurately - we do no want that which we do not want.  This is clear evidence of determinism working through biological systems.  Have you ever wanted something that you didn't want ?  To me this seems clear and simple and undeniable; I don't know why you are having such a hard time getting your head round it.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28631 on: June 01, 2018, 05:55:44 PM »
I'm curious to know why you  appear to consider it a clever thing to do to repeat back someone's words with possibly a minor alteration. Is it because you decided to follow Sword of the Spirit's mode of working? Or did you start doing it first? It can't be because you haven't got enough words - some of your previous lengthy posts indicate this, although it seems that the number of words caused the aim of posts, whatever it was - to become almost impossible to discover as a result.
 And no, I'm not going to track back to find an example to quote.
Susan - I can go back and find lots of posts where you seem to have as vivid an imagination as BHS. And no, I am not angry - I just tend to be blunt when I am short on time.

You suggest motives for posters with no more evidence to go on than the monotonous tones of Synthetic Dave. It's a lazy way of debating and so many times you seem to give up debating the actual point, claiming it is too difficult, in favour of writing your assertions about the motives of posters or their imagined interactions with others in real life. I have no idea why you do this, as the few times you do respond with an argument relating to a point being argued rather than write about a particular poster or let us know you have given up, your post can be interesting.

By the way, I don't repeat back someone's words because I think it's clever. I repeat back someone's words when their post is so full of opinion and assertion, especially when it includes assertions about me personally, that their post is not worth the time it would take me to compose a reply - I might as well just repeat the same worthless, pointless assertion and opinion back to the person and save my limited time for when I want to respond thoughtfully to a post worth composing a reply for.

ETA - also I found it amusing when you would say my post seemed sneering or arrogant to you, when I had repeated BHS's words back to him.

For example, see above - BHS asserted that his interpretation of what he considers to be "words written in plain English"  is correct, and I have asserted that the words written in plain English show that my interpretation is correct. BHS wrote that if I keep pretending the words meant something they didn't, I was being dishonest. Therefore, it also means that if he keeps pretending the words mean something they don't, he is being dishonest.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 07:25:10 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28632 on: June 01, 2018, 06:08:23 PM »
Alan's "doctrine of disconnection is dangerous; it leads to slaughter of pregnant whales, to the destruction of rainforests and ancient forests, to plastic pollution, to climate change" etc etc?

Very poetic but a complete load of crap. It's beyond ridiculous to link those negative outcomes to anything Alan has said about humans having souls or free will. Unless you can demonstrate how his posts on free-will lead to his support for any of these outcomes, your post is as much a flight of fantasy as Alan's posts on his particular beliefs.

I hope you are not indoctrinating any vulnerable children with your dangerous belief that deciding humans have a soul and animals don't is what leads to climate change.  ;)

I think you will find that it is greedy human beings looking for corporate profit or short-sighted technological advances that are responsible for the outcomes you have listed. Greedy humans don't mind that corporate profit, pollution and climate change leads to human deaths - so I don't think it is disconnection from the animal world due to non-belief in animal souls that is the problem. If you actually want to do anything constructive about climate change etc rather than show-off on a forum, I suggest you focus on the actual causes.

Thanks for the compliment; I do find something poetic in writing about nature.

The ad hom makes the rest of your post irrelevant.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28633 on: June 01, 2018, 06:21:29 PM »
Have you ever wanted something that you didn't want ?
I want many things, but I have the conscious willpower to choose how, where, when and if to satisfy that want.  I am in control - it is a simple verifiable fact which can't be explained in terms of deterministic physical brain activity,  no matter how much technical convoluted arguments are consciously chosen to try to prove otherwise.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28634 on: June 01, 2018, 06:33:33 PM »
Thanks for the compliment; I do find something poetic in writing about nature.
Yes IMO your writing is poetic.

Quote
The ad hom makes the rest of your post irrelevant.
Sure. It was just a suggestion that you look into the evidence that short-sighted economic considerations combined with technological advances have led to humans having the incentive and capability to inflict great harm to the environment.

You can keep believing that a belief that only humans have souls leads to the environmental problems we currently face if you want.   
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28635 on: June 01, 2018, 06:44:34 PM »
But how can  I possibly do anything "on purpose" if I am entirely under the unavoidable, uncontrollable deterministic control of past physical events?

Because it is not random, it is a response based on the way your mind is programmed due to previous experiences, in my view.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 07:07:25 PM by Maeght »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28636 on: June 01, 2018, 06:51:43 PM »
AB,

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There is one aspect of your posts which I just can't get my head round.

That’s not true – it’s all of my posts you “can’t get your head around”. I know this because you ignore or misrepresent every argument that undoes you.

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You continue to be in denial of my (and your) ability to invoke conscious acts of will which are not entirely driven by the pre determined physical brain activity over which we can have no control…

You can’t be “in denial” of something you’ve been given no justification for thinking to be true in the first place, especially when that something is evidence-denying and logically incoherent.

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…by saying "that's just the way it seems", and mentioning the unfathomable complexity of the physical workings of the human brain.  But no matter how much complexity is involved, every event in our brains will be entirely determined by previous physical events in a purely materialistic scenario.

Yes. And?

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Yet you seem to refuse to contemplate the alternative view of  "that's the way it is" because this would not be compatible with your materialistic viewpoint.

No, I “refuse” to “see” a conjecture that’s incompatible with the available reason and evidence. Materialism satisfies both, so provisionally at least I accept it as true; your supernaturalism satisfies neither, so provisionally at least I treat it as not true. It’s simple enough.

Quote
But by implying that I am personally responsible for all the alleged flawed logic in my posts, you are verifying the option of "that's the way it is" in order to facilitate passing on these personal accusations to me.

Why do you struggle so much with this? The “you” that makes decisions is for most practical purposes a self-determinative entity – that’s why people go to jail for committing crimes. Even a moment’s reflection though would tell you that, at a deeper level than “you”, “me” etc must lie a subconscious that gives rise to your wants. If that want is “tea”, then your conscious self says “tea please”; if your subconscious self then says “coffee”, your conscious self says, “actually I’ve changed my mind – I’ll have coffee instead”. This is neither new nor controversial by the way – try Daniel Kahnemann’s “Thinking, Fast and Slow” for a very readable introduction to the subject.

Oh, and while I’m here I’ve set out for you some very simple explanations of where you go wrong in logic. Why do you think you’ve chosen just to misrepresent or ignore them rather than engage with them? Why not for example say either, “actually the absence of an explanation for something does validate my alternative and here’s why…”, or better yet, “OK, I see now why an absent (let alone an incomplete) explanation for something tells me nothing whatever about what it might be so I’ll stop attempting the argument from personal incredulity from now on”?

Really though. What are you so afraid of?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28637 on: June 01, 2018, 07:10:47 PM »

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28638 on: June 01, 2018, 07:28:12 PM »
Susan - I can go back and find lots of posts where you seem to have as vivid an imagination as BHS. And no, I am not angry - I just tend to be blunt when I am short on time.
I am surprised that you mention being short on time - 240 words in your post here and if I remember correctly there are few posts which contain only a few words.  .
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28639 on: June 01, 2018, 07:45:52 PM »
Nope, not very angry. Just blunt. Anything else you perceive is just your over-active imagination - a bit like your over-active imagination when you read things into the Catholic schools R.E. document that weren't there.

By the way, you're deluded if you think your posts are charming or that you steer clear of coming across as angry in some of your posts.

Hi there Gabrella, I'm in the process of reading a book titled, '1000 Years of Annoying the French', Stephen Clarke, it's right up my street and I have to admit if there were a French version of this type of book taking the P out of the English I would enjoy reading it just as much as the former book.

Having said the above you mentioned something about taking the P out of ippy, I am sorry but I must have missed it, I have so many cruel friends that continually take the P out of me and I'm the sort of blameless person that wouldn't dream of doing anything similar to them or anyone else in return.

Kind regards ippy



The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28640 on: June 01, 2018, 08:24:15 PM »
Worth a read. Not to close to bedtime though.

https://splinternews.com/how-fossil-fuel-money-made-climate-denial-the-word-of-g-1797466298
Definitely interesting.

But this isn't Alan's doctrine. The few politically connected and/or ideologically-driven Christians that do oppose action against climate change even though it results in huge loss of human life, seem to do so on the basis that climate action is too politically risky and that “God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.”

Meanwhile Alan was expressing his beliefs on human free-will and souls, and his belief that animals don't have souls (I think that is what his belief is).
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28641 on: June 02, 2018, 05:40:49 AM »
I want many things, but I have the conscious willpower to choose how, where, when and if to satisfy that want.  I am in control - it is a simple verifiable fact which can't be explained in terms of deterministic physical brain activity,  no matter how much technical convoluted arguments are consciously chosen to try to prove otherwise.

Simplistic, lacking insight.  Our hopes and fears are not chosen, they arise within us, and any choice over how to satisfy our desires is itself  a desire, subject to the same principle.  The available option we go with is the option that has the strongest appeal to us in the moment.  It is the same principal in operation.  We choose the option that has the greatest appeal but we do not choose what should appeal to us.  This is our human experience, this is how minds work, and choice could not possibly be resolved by any other means.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28642 on: June 02, 2018, 05:56:38 AM »
I am not claiming to have absolute proof about our spiritual nature, but just trying to open the door to people accepting the possibility, and thus being able to take that very important first step in faith.  And once that first step is taken it could lead to a whole new awareness about God and our spiritual nature - the details of which will be beyond the understanding of those who are unable to take this first very important step.  I am able to claim absolute certainty about God's existence because my own journey in faith has gone far beyond that first step and into a very personal relationship - which you can't possibly understand until you experience it yourself.

That all adds up to a compelling justification for avoiding taking a step of faith.  Absolute certainty is the enemy of all who would aspire to seek truth.  Each of us is human, none of us is infallible and we would do well to remember that.  To grow and learn requires that element of humility that we might be wrong.  If we cannot accept that we might be wrong, how could we ever learn from our mistakes ?  The whole idea of a step of faith is contrary to the principle of critical thinking anyway; it is the abandonment of critical thinking, it is a choice to sell out our principles in order to gain the 'absolute certainty' of a nurturing belief system in which 'truth' is just more collateral damage. Who cares in this post-truth world of yours.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28643 on: June 02, 2018, 06:28:44 AM »

I think you will find that it is greedy human beings looking for corporate profit or short-sighted technological advances that are responsible for the outcomes you have listed. Greedy humans don't mind that corporate profit, pollution and climate change leads to human deaths - so I don't think it is disconnection from the animal world due to non-belief in animal souls that is the problem....

I don't think it is the problem, it is a problem.  The belief that humans are separate from nature rather than part of nature empowers our consumerist approach to broader environmental concerns.  Everything else can be viewed simply in terms of its utility or otherwise to us humans.  Animals don't really matter, they are only animals.  Thou Shalt Not Kill only applies to human killings, obviously.  If we can convince ourselves that only humans are sentient, only humans can feel love and loss and yearning then it becomes easier to justify our disregard for other creatures, for their quality of life and we can carry on keep calm and continue our exploitation of natural resources.  To fail to understand that we are part of the web of life is short sighted with catastrophic consequences.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:31:38 AM by torridon »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28644 on: June 02, 2018, 07:04:20 AM »
I don't think it is the problem, it is a problem.  The belief that humans are separate from nature rather than part of nature empowers our consumerist approach to broader environmental concerns.  Everything else can be viewed simply in terms of its utility or otherwise to us humans.  Animals don't really matter, they are only animals.  Thou Shalt Not Kill only applies to human killings, obviously.  If we can convince ourselves that only humans are sentient, only humans can feel love and loss and yearning then it becomes easier to justify our disregard for other creatures, for their quality of life and we can carry on keep calm and continue our exploitation of natural resources.  To fail to understand that we are part of the web of life is short sighted with catastrophic consequences.
On one hand you say we are part of nature then you say we disregard nature. How is that possible and where else in nature does nature disregard itself?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28645 on: June 02, 2018, 07:21:46 AM »
On one hand you say we are part of nature then you say we disregard nature. How is that possible and where else in nature does nature disregard itself?

Everything looks to its own interests, so much is instinctive.  How narrowly we define 'own interests' varies.  If I define my boundaries very closely, then I enjoy a nice life, seemingly, but at the expense of others.  If I eat a hamburger, it might taste nice, but I am commissioning the destruction of rainforest for my pleasure, the cost of which will be born by my descendents and by the inhabitants of the rainforest.

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28646 on: June 02, 2018, 09:28:42 AM »
'I am able to claim absolute certainty ...'  (AB)  Help!
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28647 on: June 02, 2018, 10:35:19 AM »
Definitely interesting.

But this isn't Alan's doctrine. The few politically connected and/or ideologically-driven Christians that do oppose action against climate change even though it results in huge loss of human life, seem to do so on the basis that climate action is too politically risky and that “God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.”

Meanwhile Alan was expressing his beliefs on human free-will and souls, and his belief that animals don't have souls (I think that is what his belief is).

All very good Gabriella, assuming the said elusive 'he', the one that has no supporting evidential reason that would indicate 'he' is worth spending any effort looking for or does in fact actually exist, other than in the minds of deluded people.

Regards ippy

 

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28648 on: June 02, 2018, 11:03:56 AM »
AB

None of the above undoes the point that your mind is an emergent property of the brain.
Yes you in your mind seem to make choices, but these choices arise from your unconscious mind. The you in your mind is always lagging behind the brain, and of course you mind does not operate in real time. Different parts of your brain take longer to process information than others. Sight takes I think the longest, so you are always aware of the world a fraction of a second after it happens.
When you see the sky on a clear day (and you are not colour blind) it appears blue. But, of course it's not blue, it's just the way it seems in your mind.
When a tree falls in a forest, it does not make a sound, but it might seem that way if you happen to be there.

The way things seem, are not always what they are.
Such things as timings and colour blindness are not relevant.  The fundamental question is this:
What is in control of our thoughts, words and deeds?  Is it the conscious interaction from the will of our human soul, or is it just the inevitable, uncontrollable consequences to all the physical chains of cause and effect which have occurred since the beginning of time?  There can be no half measures in this - we are either under the total control of the natural, unguided, aimless forces of nature, or there is something else involved beyond the physically deterministic reactions to previous events.  I would say that close to 100% of the human population would agree that they have conscious control of their thoughts, words and deeds.  This is not just an ad pop argument - it is fundamental to what makes us human.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28649 on: June 02, 2018, 11:23:44 AM »
AB,

Quote
Such things as timings and colour blindness are not relevant.  The fundamental question is this:

What is in control of our thoughts, words and deeds?

We are. “We” though means just something like “the interacting collection of matter and forces from which consciousness emerges and causes the impression of operating independent of cause and effect”.

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Is it the conscious interaction from the will of our human soul,

As there’s neither reason nor evidence to support that conjecture, almost certainly not.

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…or is it just…

Why “just”?

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…the inevitable, uncontrollable consequences to all the physical chains of cause and effect which have occurred since the beginning of time?

Leaving aside the role of the quantum, as that’s where the available reasoning and evidence leads then almost certainly yes.

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There can be no half measures in this - we are either under the total control of the natural, unguided, aimless forces of nature, or there is something else involved beyond the physically deterministic reactions to previous events.

For the same reason presumably that there can be no half measures about whether gravity makes apples fall from the tree or it’s invisible pixies tugging on very tiny strings that do it. Epistemically, the determinative universe model aligns with the former; your “soul” model aligns with the latter.

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I would say that close to 100% of the human population would agree that they have conscious control of their thoughts, words and deeds.  This is not just an ad pop argument - it is fundamental to what makes us human.

No it’s precisely an ad pop, especially as that’s exactly how decision-making feels. Close to 100% of the human population would probably agree that their fingers touch the objects they pick up too, even though better reasoning and evidence tells us that the repellent action of interacting sub-particles means they never do.

So?
"Don't make me come down there."

God