Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3888626 times)

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28675 on: June 02, 2018, 04:34:15 PM »
When your physical body dies, what will happen to the driver of that body will depend on the conscious will of the driver, so I hope and pray that by then you will have made the right choices.
Okay - let's have a response to this: what do you think happens to this  -I can hardly type it, it is so irrational - driver of all the millions of children who die every year while  under the age of two or three from malaria, malnutrition, any of the other huge range of diseases?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28676 on: June 02, 2018, 05:13:11 PM »
AB,
 

Leaving aside your irrational and evidence-denying assertions, can you think of even one good reason for anyone to think that there is a “driver”?
Because the only alternative is a driverless biological machine under the sole control of nothing but the pre determined laws of nature.  And the concepts of such things as purpose, meaning or destiny would not exist within the deterministic functionality of a material brain. We came into existence for much, much more than this.  Does the fact that we can conceive such thoughts not conflict with your materialistic scenario?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 05:25:46 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28677 on: June 02, 2018, 05:18:53 PM »
Because the only alternative is a driverless biological machine under the soul control of nothing but the pre determined laws of nature.  And the concepts of such things as purpose, meaning or destiny would not exist within the deterministic functionality of a material brain. We came into existence for much, much more than this.  Does the fact that we can conceive such thoughts not conflict with your materialistic scenario?

Argumentum ad consequentium, Alan.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28678 on: June 02, 2018, 05:21:05 PM »
I am surprised that you mention being short on time - 240 words in your post here and if I remember correctly there are few posts which contain only a few words.  .
Couldn't your time be better spent writing a response to an actual point being debated rather than counting the number of words in my post? You could try passing on some actual knowledge you might have come across in relation to one of the posts. I'm short of time because family, work, chores, community, a social life etc take up a lot of time.

I don't know about you but I find drafting work emails takes time, especially if I need to disagree or be critical in a diplomatic way. And this forum isn't work - there aren't any consequences to being blunt as many other posters have discovered, hence they haven't worried about being perceived as very angry or not charming  ::). If people want to believe I am angry - sure - freedom of belief and all that. I 'm not in control of what people post about me and maybe it works for them to post that I am angry rather than respond to the points. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28679 on: June 02, 2018, 05:24:56 PM »
Okay - let's have a response to this: what do you think happens to this  -I can hardly type it, it is so irrational - driver of all the millions of children who die every year while  under the age of two or three from malaria, malnutrition, any of the other huge range of diseases?
There will be some form of suffering and ultimately death for everyone who lives on this earth.   It is unrealistic and short sighted to form judgements about God's existence and our spiritual nature by looking at those we consider to be less fortunate than ourselves - they may be closer to God than we are.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28680 on: June 02, 2018, 05:29:20 PM »
There will be some form of suffering and ultimately death for everyone who lives on this earth.   It is unrealistic and short sighted to form judgements about God's existence and our spiritual nature by looking at those we consider to be less fortunate than ourselves - they may be closer to God than we are.

That, Alan, is quite possibly the most nauseating post I've ever encountered here.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28681 on: June 02, 2018, 05:36:55 PM »
I don't think it is the problem, it is a problem.  The belief that humans are separate from nature rather than part of nature empowers our consumerist approach to broader environmental concerns.  Everything else can be viewed simply in terms of its utility or otherwise to us humans.  Animals don't really matter, they are only animals.  Thou Shalt Not Kill only applies to human killings, obviously.  If we can convince ourselves that only humans are sentient, only humans can feel love and loss and yearning then it becomes easier to justify our disregard for other creatures, for their quality of life and we can carry on keep calm and continue our exploitation of natural resources.  To fail to understand that we are part of the web of life is short sighted with catastrophic consequences.
I agree that viewing everything in terms of utility to humans has resulted in the rapacious exploitation of resources and the environment. My point was that I don't see this attitude as being just disregard for animals - there is a disregard for human life as well during the acquisition or control of resources. Too many at the top of the heap have little regard for sentient humans who are too poor or powerless to change policies that exploit them or cause their death.

You just have to look at the arms trade to realise that political and economic considerations outweigh concerns about human life and suffering.

Also plenty of people who understand that animals are sentient still participate in the meat industry, either as suppliers, transporters or consumers. Why? Because those of us who eat meat (religious and atheist) put our needs above the needs of sentient animals. That's down to greed and selfishness IMO.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28682 on: June 02, 2018, 05:49:08 PM »
That, Alan, is quite possibly the most nauseating post I've ever encountered here.
I envy the poor more than I do the rich.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28683 on: June 02, 2018, 05:57:39 PM »
I envy the poor more than I do the rich.

What is your personal experience of poverty?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28684 on: June 02, 2018, 06:00:07 PM »
It’s not a ‘few’ people though; the reason that politicians go against what they believe is because the people who vote for them believe otherwise. There’s a concerted campaign in the States in Evangelical churches that links environmentalism with paganism. And for the most part Evangelicals believe anything pagan leads to hell.
Ok but Evangelicals are a small percentage of Christians so I don't think you can draw conclusions about Christians from the actions of a few politically-connected Evangelical activists.

And your article also showed there were Evangelicals on the other side of the debate - who don't support the US Republican party anti-environmental regulation agenda and did want to take climate action, as evidenced by the paper they issued: Evangelical Climate Initiative’s “Climate Change: An Evangelical Call to Action.

https://www.npr.org/documents/2006/feb/evangelical/calltoaction.pdf

And as your article points out, the real problem is the people funding the lobbying -  "conservative groups, funded by fossil fuel magnates [who] spend approximately one billion dollars every year interfering with public understanding of what is actually happening to our world." This well-funded lobbying leads to the fear that Republican politicians "who are seen to support climate action, or even waver on opposing it, would immediately be subject to well-funded primary challenges by more ideologically committed candidates"

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Coming back to Alan, he believes that animals not only don’t have souls, but aren’t conscious - they are basically meat machines. His ideas of caring for creation are ok insofar as they go, but the special place that he believes humans occupy means that it’s ok to exploit animals if it is for the good of humans. Now, many non believers will also agree that it’s ok to use animals for food and for medical research, even using their organs for transplantation. But lines to get drawn, over environmental damage, habitat destruction etc. The problem with the doctrine that sets us apart from nature is that its adherents believe that God will save them from disaster and that any damage done by humanity will be rectified by God - or it will be the End Times, which many Christians welcome anyway. See Alan’s reply #28658. Why bother taking care of climate change when something better is waiting anyway?
I can see how you can argue this about people who state that this is their belief. Alan hasn't stated that it is ok to exploit animals for the good of humans, at least nothing worse than the rest of us who also aren't vegetarian.

Even many of us who believe we are part of nature and see ourselves as animals and aren't looking forward to the End Times or don't think God will take care of the problem have not taken a stand against exploitation by not participating as consumers in the mass production of meat for consumption or by not consuming many of the products of some of the other technological advances that exploit or destroy the environment.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:02:11 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28685 on: June 02, 2018, 06:02:07 PM »
I envy the poor more than I do the rich.

So, have you striven to achieve poverty?

Robbie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28686 on: June 02, 2018, 06:13:53 PM »
I envy the poor more than I do the rich.

Why envy anyone at all Alan? I'd have thought envy was strictly verboten. If I wake up one morning and find myself consumed with envy of any person rich or poor I'd be seriously worried.

There's no virtue in riches or poverty & if you believe people who can't afford to charge up their electricity key or buy fish fingers for the kids are closer to God you must be living in cloud cuckoo land. Try it! Equally if you believe rich people are not close to God you are mistaken because many of the rich are good and caring; they're not immune to the troubles of this life, different ones to those who experience poverty but troubles nonetheless. We do the best we can with what we have.

One of the ten commandments is 'Thou shalt not covet', so envy is a waste of human energy.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28687 on: June 02, 2018, 06:18:37 PM »
So, have you striven to achieve poverty?
I strive to help any who are less fortunate that myself.  In particular those who suffer spiritual poverty.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28688 on: June 02, 2018, 06:21:02 PM »
I strive to help any who are less fortunate that myself.  In particular those who suffer spiritual poverty.

So do you envy the spiritually poor too? And what is your experience of material poverty?

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28689 on: June 02, 2018, 07:00:56 PM »
I strive to help any who are less fortunate that myself.  In particular those who suffer spiritual poverty.

That's nice: but not from 'skid row' I take it!

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28690 on: June 02, 2018, 07:02:15 PM »
That, Alan, is quite possibly the most nauseating post I've ever encountered here.
Thank you for writing that - which I endorse absolutely.

ETA: Subsequent posts of AB seem to have become even more nauseating.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 07:21:50 PM by SusanDoris »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28691 on: June 02, 2018, 07:30:56 PM »
Couldn't your time be better spent writing a response to an actual point being debated rather than counting the number of words in my post?
I hasten to add that I copied and pasted on to a doc, then pressed NP2 which, with my software, reads the status bar and that includes number of words.
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You could try passing on some actual knowledge you might have come across in relation to one of the posts.
coming across actual knowledge in AB's posts is definitely like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Well, I have the advantage of having plenty of time but the disadvantage of being very restricted in what I can do during that time.
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28692 on: June 02, 2018, 08:26:34 PM »
Hi ipster,

I know (and thanks), but it’s just so bloody frustrating dealing with people like this because, no matter what, they never engage with what’s actually being said. In 28614 I made various points about the hopelessness of the arguments he attempts and his reply either ignored or plain misrepresented all of it. Is he fundamentally deliberately dishonest, or can he just not process anything that he sees as chipping away at the edifice of faith beliefs he’s built for himself over the decades? 

I can see – just I think – that if I really, really found a faith belief to be as meaningful to me as AB’s faith belief is to him I’d want to protect it, but I cannot imagine the internal convolutions it would require for me then to mangle or run away from the falsifications of the arguments I thought supported it so as to do that.

It’s very weird and almost incomprehensible behaviour I find, and a bit chilling too when seen close up. It’s the same misplaced certainty and contempt for reason that’s underpinned the worst of humanity through the ages and, as if religion didn’t have enough to answer for already, this corrupting of (presumably otherwise able) minds is just one more charge to add to the rap sheet.

Depressing innit?

I think AB's a mixture of things, the poor bloke has to be from a strong Catholic background which usually has a big time indoctrinational base it rests on.

AB, then has the problem of not being able to deny, probably, his whole personal historical background and because this religious belief of his covers him more than likely from his very earliest awakenings of  recognition, this in turn would cause him so much embarrassment were he to give way to reason on almost any part of this implanted catholic dogma he is obviously riddled with, the poor chap.

Who's to say we wouldn't be anything like him having gone through a similar background?

I really don't think he actually realises it when he makes his usual baseless assertions, I really think he would be stunned if he was to one day wake up to the fact and realise they are baseless assertions without the necessary back up plus how useless they are without accompanying varifycations.

I know I keep banging on about V C Ramachanderon's ambulance chasing fervour style of neurology, please invest in his book 'Phantoms in the Brain', the things people refuse to recognise in themselves, the book's really enlightening, his straight lines between A to B combined with a dry wit, 'A to B' no pun intended, I learned so much on reading his book I'm thinking of setting up, perhaps not.

I would think any good neurologist would find A B a challenge as we all do.

It's as you say it's the children need some form of protection from all of this religion stuff, how that's achieved? Tell me if you find out?

Regards ippy

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28693 on: June 02, 2018, 08:53:07 PM »
I hasten to add that I copied and pasted on to a doc, then pressed NP2 which, with my software, reads the status bar and that includes number of words.coming across actual knowledge in AB's posts is definitely like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.
I wasn't referring to AB's posts. I meant you could write a post that contains knowledge that you came across outside of this forum, that might be relevant to a point being discussed, and would be of interest to people reading the posts.

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Well, I have the advantage of having plenty of time but the disadvantage of being very restricted in what I can do during that time.
Your posts about the BHA's position on issues were usually quite interesting - more interesting than your posts where you try to analyse a poster. IMO it's just self-indulgent nonsense when anyone claims they can figure out someone's thought process or emotions from posts on this forum. People are fairly complex and so many differing/ contrasting impulses, emotions, perceptions, thoughts etc that people reading posts are unaware of, go into the thinking and decision-making behind writing a post.  People can rarely be figured out that easily.   
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28694 on: June 02, 2018, 08:54:30 PM »
So do you envy the spiritually poor too?
Certainly not, because they are drifting away from God
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And what is your experience of material poverty?
I  grew up in a council estate named Thorntree in Middlesbrough, which was recently described as one of the most deprived areas in the country - third from bottom out of over 8000 districts.  I had no idea that I lived in a deprived area, because sixty years ago we did not have access to media to see how others lived.  I had a wonderful childhood because I lived in a loving family and there was a great community atmosphere.  Money was always short, but we never went hungry.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:01:38 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28695 on: June 02, 2018, 09:51:03 PM »
Money was always short, but we never went hungry.
...not real poverty then.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28696 on: June 02, 2018, 11:00:28 PM »
...not real poverty then.

We had to live in a hole in the ground________

ippy

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28697 on: June 02, 2018, 11:11:37 PM »
We had to live in a hole in the ground________

ippy

Your own hole?

We had to share a hole.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Robbie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28698 on: June 02, 2018, 11:36:25 PM »
We'd have been lucky to find a hole.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #28699 on: June 03, 2018, 12:20:24 AM »
We'd have been lucky to find a hole.
We didn't have two halves to make a hole.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein