Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Not random. but determined by the conscious will of the human soul - otherwise it would be just an inevitable uncontrollable reaction.

The 'conscious will of the human soul' does not buy a way out of the fact that random means not determined and determined means not random.  You are just coming up with verbiage that tries to bury that basic principle; it is just noise.  How exactly could a 'human soul', or anything, for that matter,  arrive at a final choice that was not determined by some or other clinching factor without being random ?

[torridon]

The question to contemplate is this:
Are we in control of our material bodies, or does the material body control us?

There is no fundamental separation between 'us' and our bodies.  Once you understand this, the question becomes pointless.

[Gordon]

Not random. but determined by the conscious will of the human soul - otherwise it would be just an inevitable uncontrollable reaction.

Then it must be 'otherwise' (without getting dragged into your usual hyperbole): you have a real fear of that don't you, since you've painted yourself into a corner where, for you, acknowledging determinism would negate your version of 'God'.

[torridon]

Then it must be 'otherwise' (without getting dragged into your usual hyperbole): you have a real fear of that don't you, since you've painted yourself into a corner where, for you, acknowledging determinism would negate your version of 'God'.

Yes it is fear of truth that drives people into the lands of certainties and convictions.  Here be constructions in which to hide from truth.

Enemies of truth -- Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. - Nietzsche, from Human, all too Human

[SusanDoris]

AB

I want to see a clear, direct answer to the question asked by torridon and quoted below.   I'm sure others do too.

The 'conscious will of the human soul' does not buy a way out of the fact that random means not determined and determined means not random.  You are just coming up with verbiage that tries to bury that basic principle; it is just noise.  How exactly could a 'human soul', or anything, for that matter,  arrive at a final choice that was not determined by some or other clinching factor without being random ?

[ekim]

Enemies of truth -- Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. - Nietzsche, from Human, all too Human

Is that one of Nietzsche's convictions?

[ekim]

AB

I want to see a clear, direct answer to the question asked by torridon and quoted below.

" How exactly could a 'human soul', or anything, for that matter,  arrive at a final choice that was not determined by some or other clinching factor without being random ?"

Oh, that's easy.  If you believe in God, 'random' is just a term used to cover man's ignorance of the will of God.  The 'soul', if it is pure enough, will not choose but will submit to the will of God.  If it is impure then it is more likely to make a choice determined by those 'impurities' i.e. contents of the psyche.

[Alan Burns]

The 'conscious will of the human soul' does not buy a way out of the fact that random means not determined and determined means not random.  You are just coming up with verbiage that tries to bury that basic principle; it is just noise.  How exactly could a 'human soul', or anything, for that matter,  arrive at a final choice that was not determined by some or other clinching factor without being random ?

Do you not understand the concept of conscious human will?
We all have it.
We all use it.
It is not random.
It enables us to consciously choose what we want to do.
I know you find it difficult to reconcile this with physically induced determinism.  That is because it is not physically induced, but spiritually induced.

[SusanDoris]

Do you not understand the concept of conscious human will?
We all have it.
We all use it.
It is not random.
It enables us to consciously choose what we want to do.
I know you find it difficult to reconcile this with physically induced determinism.  That is because it is not physically induced, but spiritually induced.

That's pathetic, as usual.

[torridon]

Do you not understand the concept of conscious human will?
We all have it.
We all use it.
It is not random.
It enables us to consciously choose what we want to do.
I know you find it difficult to reconcile this with physically induced determinism.  That is because it is not physically induced, but spiritually induced.

So you avoided answering the question again, using your trademark evasiveness.

Try again :  how exactly could a 'human soul', or anything, for that matter,  arrive at a final choice that was not determined by some or other clinching factor without being random ?  If there is some or other factor that resolves the choice then that is the determining factor; if there is no such determining factor then the choices is by definition, random.

Just saying it is a 'spiritual' mechanism will not turn something impossible into something doable.  All you imply is that a human soul is impossible.

[Rhiannon]

Try reading this, Alan. It’s all down to luck.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/apr/27/success-isnt-free-will-luck-determines-everything-oliver-burkeman

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

So you avoided answering the question again, using your trademark evasiveness.

Try again :  how exactly could a 'human soul', or anything, for that matter,  arrive at a final choice that was not determined by some or other clinching factor without being random ?  If there is some or other factor that resolves the choice then that is the determining factor; if there is no such determining factor then the choices is by definition, random.

Just saying it is a 'spiritual' mechanism will not turn something impossible into something doable.  All you imply is that a human soul is impossible.

"Spiritual" is just a word Alan uses because he thinks it sounds less desperate than "magic".

It isn't.

[SteveH]

Yes it is fear of truth that drives people into the lands of certainties and convictions.  Here be constructions in which to hide from truth.

Enemies of truth -- Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. - Nietzsche, from Human, all too Human

Nietsche inspired a notorious murder in America in the 1920s, and was the Nazi's favourite philosopher.

[Rhiannon]

Words like ‘soul’ and ‘spiritual’ do make sense to me because they describe the part of us that thinks and feels, the part that dreams big, creates music, falls in love. It’s the part that still needs once all the physical stuff is taken care of. It’s the awe I feel at a starry sky or a meadow.

And as far as I can tell it’ll die with me.

[Rhiannon]

Nietsche inspired a notorious murder in America in the 1920s, and was the Nazi's favourite philosopher.

The words and philosophy of the Gospel of John inspired centuries of murderous antisemitism and eventually led to the Holocaust. Your point?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Do you not understand the concept of conscious human will?
We all have it.
We all use it.
It is not random.
It enables us to consciously choose what we want to do.
I know you find it difficult to reconcile this with physically induced determinism.  That is because it is not physically induced, but spiritually induced.

Sorry if this has already been covered Alan but when you say physically induced determinism do you mean our nature/nurture?  I think my choices are determined by nature/nurture inputs - whether I choose to do X or Y or Z, those choices are available to me because of where I live, my past experiences, my environment, my abilities, the way my body and mind function to perceive my nature/ nurture, which induces the beliefs, morals, values I hold about the world around me and the way I think I should interact with it.

Is there a difference between the nature/ nurture scenario above and a spiritually induced human consciousness that makes choices?   

[SusanDoris]

Words like ‘soul’ and ‘spiritual’ do make sense to me because they describe the part of us that thinks and feels, the part that dreams big, creates music, falls in love. It’s the part that still needs once all the physical stuff is taken care of. It’s the awe I feel at a starry sky or a meadow.

And as far as I can tell it’ll die with me.

True, but it is not really a *part*, is it?  The words soul and spirit  are labels for different aspects of a total, whole person, every physical part of which is interconnected and not one of which exists independently of the body of which it is an aspect.

We can of course imagine that there are separately-sort-of-existing parts, and that's  fine, but the problems arise when that imagination is seen as a reality.

[SteveH]

The words and philosophy of the Gospel of John inspired centuries of murderous antisemitism and eventually led to the Holocaust. Your point?

That quoting Nietzche is not a good idea. The Gospel of John is beside the point.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

Sorry if this has already been covered Alan but when you say physically induced determinism do you mean our nature/nurture?  I think my choices are determined by nature/nurture inputs - whether I choose to do X or Y or Z, those choices are available to me because of where I live, my past experiences, my environment, my abilities, the way my body and mind function to perceive my nature/ nurture, which induces the beliefs, morals, values I hold about the world around me and the way I think I should interact with it.

Is there a difference between the nature/ nurture scenario above and a spiritually induced human consciousness that makes choices?

When you just make shit up that's utterly incoherent and evidence-denying and call it a "soul" in order to justify a prior faith belief, nothing has been "covered".

Seriously - ask him anything about this "soul" and he'll tell you that he "hasn't got all the details worked out yet", which is Alan speak for "I have no answers whatsoever of any kind". You know, just the same as if he'd said, "its magic innit" instead.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

When you just make shit up that's utterly incoherent and evidence-denying and call it a "soul" in order to justify a prior faith belief, nothing has been "covered".

Seriously - ask him anything about this "soul" and he'll tell you that he "hasn't got all the details worked out yet", which is Alan speak for "I have no answers whatsoever of any kind". You know, just the same as if he'd said, "its magic innit" instead.

You sound very, very angry - is that your version of being charming 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

You sound very, very angry - is that your version of being charming 

Never angry, but frustrated at the sheer brick wall obduracy of someone who just cannot or will not engage openly and honestly with the reasoning that blows his conjectures asserted as facts out of the water. And a bit depressed I suppose by the thought that he and people like him have access to the minds of children.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

Never angry, just frustrated at the sheer brick wall obduracy of someone who just cannot or will not engage openly and honestly with the reasoning that blows his conjectures asserted as facts out of the water. And a bit depressed I suppose by the thought that he and people like him have access to the minds of children.

I don't see the point of getting frustrated at diversity of beliefs. It just goes with the territory of being human, nature/nurture etc - and I am not entirely sure why a belief in a soul is particularly problematic.

I just started a thread on the General Discussion board about beliefs about liberalism that seem far more problematic to children, given the resulting humanitarian crises that seemed to be caused by certain economic and political policy decisions, so putting things in perspective I am afraid I can't share your concern for children who may be introduced to beliefs about souls. But presumably, despite your frustration, you get something out of this thread - so I'll leave you to it, unless Alan comes back with an answer to my question.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

I don't see the point of getting frustrated at diversity of beliefs. It just goes with the territory of being human, nature/nurture etc - and I am not entirely sure why a belief in a soul is particularly problematic.

It’s “problematic” when lies are taught to children, not that there's a diversity of beliefs.

I just started a thread on the General Discussion board about beliefs about liberalism that seem far more problematic to children, given the resulting humanitarian crises that seemed to be caused by certain economic and political policy decisions, so putting things in perspective I am afraid I can't share your concern for children who may be introduced to beliefs about souls. But presumably, despite your frustration, you get something out of this thread - so I'll leave you to it, unless Alan comes back with an answer to my question.

I happen to think that teaching lies to children is a bad idea. If you don’t, then so be it.

[Rhiannon]

That quoting Nietzche is not a good idea. The Gospel of John is beside the point.

Quoting John has led to persecution of the Jews. You were the one bringing Nazi-ism into it. Where do you want to draw a line here?

[ippy]

Do you not understand the concept of conscious human will?
We all have it.
We all use it.
It is not random.
It enables us to consciously choose what we want to do.
I know you find it difficult to reconcile this with physically induced determinism.  That is because it is not physically induced, but spiritually induced.

And the evidence you have for this spiritually induced determinism can be explained fully as follows? Q Alan?

It's a long past stop digging time Alan, you've not even managed to get ahead anywhere any time to make it worth giving up the digging.

'Lost cause Alan', should be your new forum handle, you're certainly there.

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy.