Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3888671 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29050 on: June 13, 2018, 10:39:14 AM »
NS,

Quote
This is a non sequitur to you accusing people of lying. You then put a begging the question in by saying people have a consciously driven freedom, a freedom that you have been unable to define in any logical way, and then you use the word 'physical' unnecessarily sine the logic applies rather than any physicalism and your alternative 'spiritual' has not been defined by you in any logically coherent fashion.

Yeah, but apart from all that though...

Incidentally as he seems to think both that I'm lying and that I have a "soul" at the controls would it not be my soul that's doing the lying for my by pulling the lever with "tell lie here" on it? Would I not in other words be a puppet of my soul (as opposed to a "puppet of nature" as he puts it)?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29051 on: June 13, 2018, 10:46:26 AM »
What you call sub conscious perception can be nothing more that physically induced reactions to sensory data.  And sleepwalking is a good illustration of how biological machines can function without the need for conscious perception.

And how many creatures have you observed in the wild exhibiting behaviours like sleep walking ?  Quite the contrary, to even stay alive requires sharp senses in tip top condition. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:51:26 AM by torridon »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29052 on: June 13, 2018, 11:09:14 AM »
NS,

Yeah, but apart from all that though...

Incidentally as he seems to think both that I'm lying and that I have a "soul" at the controls would it not be my soul that's doing the lying for my by pulling the lever with "tell lie here" on it? Would I not in other words be a puppet of my soul (as opposed to a "puppet of nature" as he puts it)?

I think Alan would suggest there is only one 'I' - the soul and it's lying about itself existing.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29053 on: June 13, 2018, 11:15:19 AM »
NS,

Yeah, but apart from all that though...

Incidentally as he seems to think both that I'm lying and that I have a "soul" at the controls would it not be my soul that's doing the lying for my by pulling the lever with "tell lie here" on it? Would I not in other words be a puppet of my soul (as opposed to a "puppet of nature" as he puts it)?
I have never accused you or anyone else of lying.  I just try to point out your mistaken perceptions of reality.  But when you reply to a post, can you really believe that (according to previous posts on this subject) your reply is just a subconscious reaction which comes into your awareness after it has been pre determined?  Or is there something else which drives the content of your posts?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29054 on: June 13, 2018, 11:16:37 AM »
NS,

Quote
I think Alan would suggest there is only one 'I' - the soul and it's lying about itself existing.

Succinctly put. So basically the "soul" called "Alan" is accusing the "soul" called "bluehillside" of lying.

Nice.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29055 on: June 13, 2018, 11:25:21 AM »
I have never accused you or anyone else of lying.  I just try to point out your mistaken perceptions of reality.  But when you reply to a post, can you really believe that (according to previous posts on this subject) your reply is just a subconscious reaction which comes into your awareness after it has been pre determined?  Or is there something else which drives the content of your posts?

No, you have stated that people are denying something that everyone knows to be true - that's saying people are lying. You do this a lot.

Whether I can believe anything doesn't affect whether it is true. You are asking me to indulge in your argument by incredulity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29056 on: June 13, 2018, 11:34:02 AM »
AB,

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I have never accused you or anyone else of lying.

Yes you did (“he will always use the freedom given to him by the power of his human soul to think up ways of denying its existence”).

Quote
I just try to point out your mistaken perceptions of reality.

No you don’t point that out, you just assert it. If you wanted to point something out you have to demonstrate first the thing you’re think can be pointed out. And that’s you problem – incoherent and incompetently constructed arguments demonstrate nothing.       

Quote
But when you reply to a post, can you really believe that (according to previous posts on this subject) your reply is just a subconscious reaction which comes into your awareness after it has been pre determined?

Your understanding is awry, but if I follow the logic and evidence then essentially yes.

Quote
Or is there something else which drives the content of your posts?

Your understanding is awry, but if I follow the logic and evidence then essentially yes.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29057 on: June 13, 2018, 11:39:09 AM »
Not only factually incorrect, but demonstrates, "We don't know what caused it, but know it wasn't God" silliness on your part. That's a logical contradiction by the way.

Perhaps time to change your worldview to something that is actually falsifiable?

My irony meter has just red-lined!

'Properties of Truth' - any clarification on these yet?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29058 on: June 13, 2018, 11:39:30 AM »

No, you have stated that people are denying something that everyone knows to be true - that's saying people are lying. You do this a lot.
Despite the accusations to the contrary, I use logical arguments to support my convictions.  I do not resort to accusing people of lying.
Quote
Whether I can believe anything doesn't affect whether it is true. You are asking me to indulge in your argument by incredulity.
Yes, because some things can be deemed unbelievable - such as a person's ability to compose complex arguments to support their chosen point of view whilst under the constraints of unavoidable, uncontrollable, pre determined chains of physically induced cause and effect events.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29059 on: June 13, 2018, 11:45:20 AM »
I have never accused you or anyone else of lying.  I just try to point out your mistaken perceptions of reality.  But when you reply to a post, can you really believe that (according to previous posts on this subject) your reply is just a subconscious reaction which comes into your awareness after it has been pre determined?  Or is there something else which drives the content of your posts?

You know the answers to those questions Alan. Why can't you just accept that other people don't have your beliefs?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:53:03 AM by Maeght »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29060 on: June 13, 2018, 11:47:00 AM »
Despite the accusations to the contrary, I use logical arguments to support my convictions.  I do not resort to accusing people of lying.Yes, because some things can be deemed unbelievable - such as a person's ability to compose complex arguments to support their chosen point of view whilst under the constraints of unavoidable, uncontrollable, pre determined chains of physically induced cause and effect events.
Sorry Alan, but the logic of saying people are denying something they know to be true is that you are accusing people of lying. Just denying it isn't a logical argument. Again that you deem something as unbelievable is just more of your argument from incredulity and has no impact on facts and is a logical fallacy undermining your claim to be using logical arguments.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29061 on: June 13, 2018, 11:50:41 AM »
AB,

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Despite the accusations to the contrary, I use logical arguments to support my convictions.

No you don’t. Your attempts at logical arguments have – so far at least – all been logically false. Why they’re false has been explained to you regularly and consistently. That you just ignore those explanations is a matter for you, but at what point should we conclude that the only dishonesty here is yours for continuing with this behaviour?   

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I do not resort to accusing people of lying.

That’s a lie.

Quote
Yes, because some things can be deemed unbelievable - such as a person's ability to compose complex arguments to support their chosen point of view whilst under the constraints of unavoidable, uncontrollable, pre determined chains of physically induced cause and effect events.

But “unbelievable” here just means “it stretches my incredulity beyond breaking point” and, as has been explained to you countless times, the argument from personal incredulity is a very bad argument. 

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29062 on: June 13, 2018, 11:50:52 AM »
Sorry Alan, but the logic of saying people are denying something they know to be true is that you are accusing people of lying.
I just try to point out that they are genuinely mistaken.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29063 on: June 13, 2018, 11:53:11 AM »

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
Because it contradicts my most basic perception of reality.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29064 on: June 13, 2018, 11:54:10 AM »
I just try to point out that they are genuinely mistaken.

That is your belief so its not pointing out a fact but expressing your beliefs, nothing more.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29065 on: June 13, 2018, 11:55:28 AM »
AB,

Quote
I just try to point out that they are genuinely mistaken.

Yet again, you cannot "point out" something you cannot demonstrate to be true in the first place. All you can do is to assert it, which is what you do.

By contrast by the way some of us use reason and evidence to point out that the almost certainly genuinely mistaken person here is you.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29066 on: June 13, 2018, 11:58:02 AM »
I just try to point out that they are genuinely mistaken.
But then they aren't denying something that according to you everyone knows to be true. You're contradicting yourself.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29067 on: June 13, 2018, 12:00:01 PM »
AB,

Quote
Because it contradicts my most basic perception of reality.

Correcting a logical fallacy you attempt "contradicts (your) most basic perception of reality"?

So what makes your personal "most basic perception of reality" have any credence for anyone else, especially when your attempts to validate it with arguments collapse immediately you try them?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 12:05:39 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29068 on: June 13, 2018, 12:01:40 PM »
Because it contradicts my most basic perception of reality.

That's no big deal.  Many of our intuitions about 'reality' have been shown to be flawed. Can you really grasp that time is running at a different speed at your head to that at your feet ?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29069 on: June 13, 2018, 12:04:51 PM »
AB,

Yet again, you cannot "point out" something you cannot demonstrate to be true in the first place. All you can do is to assert it, which is what you do.

By contrast by the way some of us use reason and evidence to point out that the almost certainly genuinely mistaken person here is you.
Sorry, but I fail to see how a deterministically controlled emergent property of material entities can be accused of being mistaken.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29070 on: June 13, 2018, 12:08:05 PM »
AB,

Quote
Sorry, but I fail to see how a deterministically controlled emergent property of material entities can be accused of being mistaken.

Do you even know what the "argument from personal incredulity" means?

What possible relevance do you think your personal failure to see something has to arguing for epistemic truths for others?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29071 on: June 13, 2018, 01:44:20 PM »
Vladdo,

Vladdo starts the fallacy of pejorative language…

Hilly completely forgets that he recently and joyously started each reply to my posts with a perjoritive.

cue....''starting a post with the word 'fallacyboy' is not a fallacy''.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29072 on: June 13, 2018, 02:32:03 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
Hilly completely forgets that he recently and joyously started each reply to my posts with a perjoritive.

cue....''starting a post with the word 'fallacyboy' is not a fallacy''.

In which Vladdo completely forgets:

1. That pejorative language and fair comment are not the same thing. “Trolling” describes the behaviour of an internet troll, namely:

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement.

(Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

I’d add to that ignoring or lying about arguments that undo the troll, repeated use of the same fallacies, never, ever answering a question while simultaneously demanding answers from others, almost never mounting an argument for something (preferring instead to make poor attempts at falsifiying unwelcome arguments from others), relentless prevarication and obfuscation etc.

The rules here don’t allow us to identify trolling when it happens, but that doesn’t change the fact that your behaviour here nonetheless is precisely aligned to it.

Pejorative language on the other hand (“turdpolishing” for example – presumably your obsession with scatological terms is a function of a difficult potty training episode or similar by the way?) is just code for: “Yikes, I can’t or won’t engage with that argument because it’s too difficult or too uncomfortable for me, so instead I’ll describe it with an insulting term and hope no-one notices the difference".

2. Even if you did have a point though (and you don’t) at best all that would give you a tu quoque – one of the various logical fallacies on which your rare attempts at argument always founder.

PS As I know you’d be concerned, can I reassure you that the side-splitting laughter I’ve been experiencing since your “scientific knowledge” catastrophe seems to have subsided now with no lasting harm done. Well, a few bruised ribs maybe but nothing permanent is seems. Just thought you'd like to know  ;)
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29073 on: June 13, 2018, 02:38:51 PM »
Vladdo,

In which Vladdo completely forgets:

1. That pejorative language and fair comment are not the same thing. “Trolling” describes the behaviour of an internet troll, namely:

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement.

(Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

I’d add to that ignoring or lying about arguments that undo the troll, repeated use of the same fallacies, never, ever answering a question while simultaneously demanding answers from others, almost never mounting an argument for something (preferring instead to make poor attempts at falsifiying unwelcome arguments from others), relentless prevarication and obfuscation etc.

The rules here don’t allow us to identify trolling when it happens, but that doesn’t change the fact that your behaviour here nonetheless is precisely aligned to it.

Pejorative language on the other hand (“turdpolishing” for example – presumably your obsession with scatological terms is a function of a difficult potty training episode or similar by the way?) is just code for: “Yikes, I can’t or won’t engage with that argument because it’s too difficult or too uncomfortable for me, so instead I’ll describe it with an insulting term and hope no-one notices the difference".

2. Even if you did have a point though (and you don’t) at best all that would give you a tu quoque – one of the various logical fallacies on which your rare attempts at argument always founder.

PS As I know you’d be concerned, can I reassure you that the side-splitting laughter I’ve been experiencing since your “scientific knowledge” catastrophe seems to have subsided now with no lasting harm done. Well, a few bruised ribs maybe but nothing permanent is seems. Just thought you'd like to know  ;)

Note: Hillside's complete humbug in this post is presently being illustrated in his present correspondence on this forum with Nicholas Marks.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #29074 on: June 13, 2018, 02:46:09 PM »
Me (Reply 29074):

Quote
Pejorative language on the other hand... is just code for: “Yikes, I can’t or won’t engage with that argument because it’s too difficult or too uncomfortable for me, so instead I’ll describe it with an insulting term and hope no-one notices the difference".

Vladdo (Reply 29075):

Quote
Note: Hillside's complete humbug in this post is presently being illustrated in his present correspondence on this forum with Nicholas Marks.

You just couldn’t make this shooting yourself in the foot stuff up.

Priceless!
"Don't make me come down there."

God