Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

This post of ekim's in reply to Torridon's #29196 I'd say is reflecting what Alan is trying to express in way of 'an observer'. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Alan).

Torridon, try a little meditation, you don't have to go too deep to recognise what ekim is saying. You may even experience a sense of 'you' being apart from your body.

Some are struggling with the word 'soul' on this thread which could be replaced by the 'I' ekim refers to. 'Soul' for many will bring on a state of cognitive dissonance which can prevent any further discussion and understanding.

Thanks for your welcome input on this Sweetpea.  Yes the soul is what most people would associate with the "I" in their lives.  When I was in primary school, I imagined the soul as a big white sheet which we carried around with us, and when we did something naughty, we got black marks on it, which we then had to get cleaned up by going to confession!  But gradually came the realisation that in essence the soul is "me" and all I experience as life.

One of the wonderful experiences I get from faith is my ability to give thanks for the amazing gift of life.  As I give thanks for the gift of each new day, I come to realise more and more just how wonderful and awesome our gift of life is, and what we can achieve with it through God's incredible gift of free will.

[Rhiannon]

I don’t think I’d disagree with the idea of ‘soul’ being ‘me’. It’s when you attach the word ‘immortal’ to it that things fall apart. Or when you see it as a separate entity to the body, like a hand in a glove.

But I find the implication that only faith brings a recognition of how precious life horribly nauseating.

[SusanDoris]

But these examples came into existence through the subjective will of God.  Subjectivity is God's creation, not nature's.

Aaaaarrrrggghhhh! I don't know how much more I can stand!!!

[SusanDoris]

On the subject of meditation:  I have given it a brief, but positive, try a couple of times, but it absolutely isn't me. I much prefer to be fully aware of what is going on and of my thoughts and am glad I have not wasted precious time in my life trhying to meditate!

[Rhiannon]

On the subject of meditation:  I have given it a brief, but positive, try a couple of times, but it absolutely isn't me. I much prefer to be fully aware of what is going on and of my thoughts and am glad I have not wasted precious time in my life trhying to meditate!

I’m like Torridon in that I have head chatter and there are times when meditation just isn’t possible for me even though I’d like it to be. But I get what you mean - I like to be able to reason in any given moment and so I don’t take any drugs that might hamper that, and I rarely drink. I like to keep a clear head.

[ekim]

I’m like Torridon in that I have head chatter and there are times when meditation just isn’t possible for me even though I’d like it to be. But I get what you mean - I like to be able to reason in any given moment and so I don’t take any drugs that might hamper that, and I rarely drink. I like to keep a clear head.

At times it does seem like an inner struggle.  Apart from active thought processes, there can be emotional conflict, fantasies and simply falling asleep.  Like anything, it does take practice but it also suffers from not being able to easily demonstrate its benefits.  Somebody could just as easily say I am glad I have not wasted precious time in my life trying to tap dance but when you see it demonstrated by the likes of Gene Kelly you can see its attraction and what can be achieved.  However, getting back on topic, the Jesus method appears to be about empowering, enlivening, blissfulness and heaven, whilst at the same time avoiding the temptations which can be associated with it.

[torridon]

I’m like Torridon in that I have head chatter and there are times when meditation just isn’t possible for me even though I’d like it to be. But I get what you mean - I like to be able to reason in any given moment and so I don’t take any drugs that might hamper that, and I rarely drink. I like to keep a clear head.

I always find the best time to have a clear head is first thing in the morning, so on weekends, with no rush off to work, sometimes I afford myself the luxury of just sitting in a comfy chair and clearing my mind; no music, no radio, no TV, just silence and stillness, or maybe just the birds chirping outside in the garden.  I suppose that might be meditation of sorts.  If I'm up early, like 5am, I can sit there without moving for two hours sometimes, and then the business of thinking and doing beckons.  Not that I've ever encountered some mystical inner me doing that, but I do feel refreshed afterwards, sometimes with a clearer perspective on my priorities, if I'm lucky.

[ekim]

I always find the best time to have a clear head is first thing in the morning, so on weekends, with no rush off to work, sometimes I afford myself the luxury of just sitting in a comfy chair and clearing my mind; no music, no radio, no TV, just silence and stillness, or maybe just the birds chirping outside in the garden.  I suppose that might be meditation of sorts.  If I'm up early, like 5am, I can sit there without moving for two hours sometimes, and then the business of thinking and doing beckons.  Not that I've ever encountered some mystical inner me doing that, but I do feel refreshed afterwards, sometimes with a clearer perspective on my priorities, if I'm lucky.

When in that clear headed stillness can you say what it feels like?

[torridon]

When in that clear headed stillness can you say what it feels like?

I can't admit to anything profound or remarkable here; just peaceful, relaxed with a low level awareness of my own mind and body

[ekim]

I can't admit to anything profound or remarkable here; just peaceful, relaxed with a low level awareness of my own mind and body

It doesn't have to be profound or remarkable (except perhaps for those who want to feed their ego) but it may arise as joyfulness without any reason for it to do so.  Low level awareness sounds like simple awareness.  The next stage might be to sustain that low level awareness throughout the rest of the day so that it functions in conjunction with focused awareness.  As an analogy, it's a bit like sustaining peripheral vision and focused vision.

[ippy]

But these examples came into existence through the subjective will of God.  Subjectivity is God's creation, not nature's.

Good job someone has direct contact with this god fellow of yours Alan, otherwise we wouldn't know about these little snippets of information you keep feeding us with, could you ask him, the next time he phones you? to tell all of us how he does this subjective will bit of his, a few diagrams would be O K if that's what it takes.

I think it would be fair to say that you single handedly destroyed any tendency I may have ever had to be an agnostic, it's mainly the absolute unsupported tripe you continue to keep coming out with, you've lost it and can't let yourself admit it.

Many commiserations to you Alan, you need em, ippy.

P S By the way what a daft post this one of yours, no doubt you'll top it soon.

[SteveH]

I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again: why are the non-believers on here so obsessively sarcastic and unpleasant?

[SusanDoris]

I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again: why are the non-believers on here so obsessively sarcastic and unpleasant?

It is you who are creating the sound of sarcasm in your head. Try using a voice like synthetic Dave when all posts are read with the same intonationand then you will hear what they say rather than hear a tone that isn't there.

[trippymonkey]

Pretty sure most so-called 'unbelievers' would really like to know of a god but the 'believers' seem not to know how to communicate it over to them.
THEN we get sarcasm that, if you look beyond it, is more like saying 'WELL, Come on then, you useless buggers.' MAYBE?

Nick

[Rhiannon]

I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again: why are the non-believers on here so obsessively sarcastic and unpleasant?

All of them?

[torridon]

It doesn't have to be profound or remarkable (except perhaps for those who want to feed their ego) but it may arise as joyfulness without any reason for it to do so.  Low level awareness sounds like simple awareness.  The next stage might be to sustain that low level awareness throughout the rest of the day so that it functions in conjunction with focused awareness.  As an analogy, it's a bit like sustaining peripheral vision and focused vision.

I never get a sense of joyfulness for no reason.  Maybe that has to do with the fact that I'm just resting, not meditating.  To experience joy there would have to be some trigger causing that.  If I empty my mind of all distraction, I don't get to joyfulness, I just feel in a neutral state, neither happy nor sad, and this is surely the default state that Nature has fashioned for minds.  We live by default in a neutral state, so we then respond nimbly if something bad happens, or if something good happens.  When I'm deeply resting I just feel like a region of flesh; alive, yes, but inactive, just ticking over, until something happens.

[Bramble]

I've always been useless at meditation; at least in any formal methodical way, like mindfulness or self-hypnosis.  My mind is a busy place, there are always thoughts coming and going and I cannot stop them.  I did once have a mild out of body experience, not that I induced it intentionally, and it was rather peculiar, but I'm happy to rationalise it as a momentary abberation of proprioception rather than some profound mystical insight into a deeper reality.

Maybe it would help to understand meditation as something you can't fail at. As one meditation teacher put it, 'The ambition to improve your state of mind is part of the consciousness that finds fault with itself and lives in pain.'

[bluehillside Retd.]

Steve H,

I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again: why are the non-believers on here so obsessively sarcastic and unpleasant?

I give you Sassy, Sword, Vlad, Gabriella, your good self in previous times – and that’s without the silent evidence of those who appear here, blaze brightly in their evangelical contempt for others and then get banned.

I give you too by the way the patient intelligence of torri, Stranger, Rhiannon etc from the “non-believer” camp.

The point here is that we’re more likely to see behaviours we don’t like from those whose views we don’t share and vice versa – it’s a bias. I think too that it’s fair to say that the behaviour of an AB for example would drive Gandhi to pick up a large blunt instrument – unremitting obduracy and evasion by trying bad arguments in logic, having them falsified comprehensively, then resorting to the same old mindless assertions ("But these examples came into existence through the subjective will of God. Subjectivity is God's creation, not nature's" etc). If he and others would just for once say, “OK, I see the argument now and here’s my response to it” I think you’d find the blood pressure of his interlocutors would be significantly less elevated.

[ippy]

I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again: why are the non-believers on here so obsessively sarcastic and unpleasant?

When people keep on shovelling out such unsupported prosperous nonsense in the way posters such as the likes of A B & Co, what do you expect Steve, they're in my opinion an insult to the intelligence, so anything they get in return is well deserved, oh yes if you ever feel the need by all means____, it happens all of the time on forums like this one, just get over it.

As well as handing out unsupported preposterous nonsense religionists insist on instilling this rubbish into the heads of our very youngest children as though it were true, where as the larger majority of the non-religious see this as bordering on criminality and would be prepared to do time for teaching our very young to think for themselves; the way religionists keep indoctrinating their stuff into our young children's heads doesn't exactly endear most of us to this religionist behaviour and in turn the religionists.

Maybe that's why the sarcasm Steve, have you ever thought about that lot?

Regards ippy

[Nearly Sane]

When people keep on shovelling out such unsupported prosperous nonsense in the way posters such as the likes of A B & Co, what do you expect Steve, they're in my opinion an insult to the intelligence, so anything they get in return is well deserved, oh yes if you ever feel the need by all means____, it happens all of the time on forums like this one, just get over it.

As well as handing out unsupported preposterous nonsense religionists insist on instilling this rubbish into the heads of our very youngest children as though it were true, where as the larger majority of the non-religious see this as bordering on criminality and would be prepared to do time for teaching our very young to think for themselves; the way religionists keep indoctrinating their stuff into our young children's heads doesn't exactly endear most of us to this religionist behaviour and in turn the religionists.

Maybe that's why the sarcasm Steve, have you ever thought about that lot?

Regards ippy

You sound as if you want to put 'religionists' in camps.

[ippy]

You sound as if you want to put 'religionists' in camps.

Now there's an idea N S, bread and water only.

Regards ippy

P S Does it show that I'm not that keen on religion then?

[SusanDoris]

Maybe it would help to understand meditation as something you can't fail at. As one meditation teacher put it, 'The ambition to improve your state of mind is part of the consciousness that finds fault with itself and lives in pain.'

I wonder why so many people think it is so important to meditate in one form or another. I have never felt a need for it, and when I was challenged to try it, I discovered I'd been right all along!

[ippy]

Maybe it would help to understand meditation as something you can't fail at. As one meditation teacher put it, 'The ambition to improve your state of mind is part of the consciousness that finds fault with itself and lives in pain.'

Meditation the ultimate way of not doing anything and making yourself feel as though you achieved something? And feel a lot better.

I meditate every night I call it not doing anything and going to sleep it makes me feel as though I've achieved something, I've no idea what? But I feel a lot better.

Could you explain the difference between going to bed at night and meditation, the only thing that sounds different to me is where the mediators think there's something very far from the normal about meditation, I think you'll find it'll take a long time to explain, is that why some tie themselves into knots when meditating as some sort of metaphor about how difficult meditation is to explain?

Regards ippy

[ekim]

I never get a sense of joyfulness for no reason.  Maybe that has to do with the fact that I'm just resting, not meditating.  To experience joy there would have to be some trigger causing that.  If I empty my mind of all distraction, I don't get to joyfulness, I just feel in a neutral state, neither happy nor sad, and this is surely the default state that Nature has fashioned for minds.  We live by default in a neutral state, so we then respond nimbly if something bad happens, or if something good happens.  When I'm deeply resting I just feel like a region of flesh; alive, yes, but inactive, just ticking over, until something happens.

If Nature has fashioned minds with a default neutral state, so be it, but most meditation practices tend towards resting the consciousness in a space free from a reasoning rationalising mind, where, if there is a default state, it is a source of harmony and expresses itself as lively joyousness, which unlike pleasure and pain needs no reason.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

If Nature has fashioned minds with a default neutral state, so be it, but most meditation practices tend towards resting the consciousness in a space free from a reasoning rationalising mind, where, if there is a default state, it is a source of harmony and expresses itself as lively joyousness, which unlike pleasure and pain needs no reason.

But what if you're fortunate enough to feel pretty "harmonious" (or even joyous!) most of the time anyway? Your argument sounds to me like the argument of the smoker – "smoking calms my nerves" – when what's causing his nerves to need calming in the first place is nicotine deprivation!