Searching for GOD...

[SteveH]

You can, over time, modify your wants, so that you no longer want undesireable things, or at least not as much, and learn to want desireable ones. We certainly have the freedom to satisfy our desires or not, e.g. giving up smoking, giving innocent pleasures up for lent, and we can choose between different desires when only one is possible (e.g. do I spend my last fiver on a couple of pints in my local Wetherspoons, or a box of chocolates?).

[torridon]

You can, over time, modify your wants, so that you no longer want undesireable things, or at least not as much, and learn to want desireable ones. We certainly have the freedom to satisfy our desires or not, e.g. giving up smoking, giving innocent pleasures up for lent, and we can choose between different desires when only one is possible (e.g. do I spend my last fiver on a couple of pints in my local Wetherspoons, or a box of chocolates?).

If you, over time, modify your wants, that implies there must be a want to modify your wants, otherwise why would you do it ? 

Do you choose what is desireable to you and what is not desireable ?  I like marmite, but I do not choose to like it, I just do.

[Maeght]

What a bloody silly question.

Its a good question and is at the heart of the debate of whether choices are free or predetermined by previous events.

[SteveH]

If you, over time, modify your wants, that implies there must be a want to modify your wants, otherwise why would you do it ? 

Do you choose what is desireable to you and what is not desireable ?  I like marmite, but I do not choose to like it, I just do.

So what? We have at least limited free-will. That's what matters.

[wigginhall]

So AB could choose to want to be an atheist?

[ekim]

Its a good question and is at the heart of the debate of whether choices are free or predetermined by previous events.

Although, from a Christian perspective, it is not so much about predetermined by previous events but by, at first, choosing between the source of the wills which lie behind the choices i.e. self centred desires or God centred intention.  In submission to God's Will, you could say either that you will what God wills or you are free from self will.  Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

[Maeght]

Although, from a Christian perspective, it is not so much about predetermined by previous events but by, at first, choosing between the source of the wills which lie behind the choices i.e. self centred desires or God centred intention.  In submission to God's Will, you could say either that you will what God wills or you are free from self will.  Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

You need to talk to Alan Burns about that I think.

[Bramble]

Although, from a Christian perspective, it is not so much about predetermined by previous events but by, at first, choosing between the source of the wills which lie behind the choices i.e. self centred desires or God centred intention.  In submission to God's Will, you could say either that you will what God wills or you are free from self will.  Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Multiple wills compete within us. If we think in terms of there being a self which chooses then whichever will wins out remains 'my' will since 'I' chose it, even if I ascribe the will to God. However, I don't think this is how it really is. In my experience decisions seem to happen quite 'by themselves' (this is especially noticeable with difficult decisions) and the ownership of the choice comes afterwards. This is one of the ways in which we create a sense of being someone.

[ippy]

So AB could choose to want to be an atheist?

Like

ippy

[torridon]

So what? We have at least limited free-will. That's what matters.

It is what we could more accurately describe as 'apparent' free will.

[ekim]

Multiple wills compete within us. If we think in terms of there being a self which chooses then whichever will wins out remains 'my' will since 'I' chose it, even if I ascribe the will to God. However, I don't think this is how it really is. In my experience decisions seem to happen quite 'by themselves' (this is especially noticeable with difficult decisions) and the ownership of the choice comes afterwards. This is one of the ways in which we create a sense of being someone.

From the Christian perspective though, it is that wilful 'self' which needs to be sacrificed so that the 'soul' is purified and able to be in union with the Will of God, rather than attached to what comprises the 'self'.

[Bramble]

From the Christian perspective though, it is that wilful 'self' which needs to be sacrificed so that the 'soul' is purified and able to be in union with the Will of God, rather than attached to what comprises the 'self'.

Not sure I'm getting this. The self must by definition be wilful since it claims as its own whatever will happens to manifest, but if the wilful self cannot be in union with God's Will then presumably one is wasting one's time attempting to follow the Will of God because to the extent that the self imagines it is doing so it is failing, and if the 'soul' is capable of said union then soul and self must be quite different entities, in which case what has 'my' soul to do with 'me'?

[ekim]

1....Not sure I'm getting this. The self must by definition be wilful since it claims as its own whatever will happens to manifest, but if the wilful self cannot be in union with God's Will then presumably one is wasting one's time attempting to follow the Will of God because to the extent that the self imagines it is doing so it is failing, and if the 'soul' is capable of said union then soul and self must be quite different entities,
2....in which case what has 'my' soul to do with 'me'?

1....In my view, that is correct.
2....In the context of this discussion, you are the 'soul' but you identify with the 'self'.  There are many attributes associated with the 'self' like self seeking, self absorbed, self possessed, self satisfied, self important, self righteous etc. which are indicators of how strong the attachments are to that identity most of which is contained within the mind as a 'self' image.  The Jesus path is to direct the attention beyond that mind and identify with soul or inner spirit which is in union with the whole or Holy Spirit, which of course means letting go of or being free from the satanic pull of self aggrandisement.

[SusanDoris]

In the TFTD on 'Today' this morning, the vicar of St James in Piccadilly talked about some science first. Then she went on to talk about 'spiritual growth' or something with an absolute assumption that this referred to religious belief. As I am wont to say - that really annoys me!!

[SweetPea]

...... The Jesus path is to direct the attention beyond that mind and identify with soul or inner spirit which is in union with the whole or Holy Spirit, which of course means letting go of or being free from the satanic pull of self aggrandisement.

Yes, which leads to peace within by stilling the ego.... "the kingdom of heaven is within.." "Be still and know that I am God".

[Roses]

Yes, which leads to peace within by stilling the ego.... "the kingdom of heaven is within.." "Be still and know that I am God".

It never gave me any sort of peace when I was a believer, just one heck of a lot of angst.

[Bramble]

In the context of this discussion, you are the 'soul' but you identify with the 'self'.  There are many attributes associated with the 'self' like self seeking, self absorbed, self possessed, self satisfied, self important, self righteous etc. which are indicators of how strong the attachments are to that identity most of which is contained within the mind as a 'self' image.  The Jesus path is to direct the attention beyond that mind and identify with soul or inner spirit which is in union with the whole or Holy Spirit, which of course means letting go of or being free from the satanic pull of self aggrandisement.

This sounds like a rather convoluted way of expressing the Manichean idea that ‘I’ am divided against myself, the battleground of good versus evil.

[ippy]

Yes, which leads to peace within by stilling the ego.... "the kingdom of heaven is within.." "Be still and know that I am God".

I note you're off on one again S P, oh dear never mind.

ippy

[Maeght]

Yes, which leads to peace within by stilling the ego.... "the kingdom of heaven is within.." "Be still and know that I am God".

Stilling the ego - what does that actually mean?

[ippy]

Stilling the ego - what does that actually mean?

Probably something that sounds as soppy and wet as stilling the ego sounds.

Regards ippy

[Maeght]

Probably something that sounds as soppy and wet as stilling the ego sounds.

Regards ippy

Wouldn't be at all surprised.

[ekim]

This sounds like a rather convoluted way of expressing the Manichean idea that ‘I’ am divided against myself, the battleground of good versus evil.

I would guess that some would see it as a battle.  If it helps them with the process, so be it.  To me a battle, especially a mental battle, is likely to agitate the mind and distract the attention away from the straight and narrow path to a still centre beyond the mind and towards the broad path leading to eternal damnation.   The word translated as 'sin' in the New Testament is 'hamartia' which meant 'to miss the mark'.  It doesn't have to be portrayed as evil, just a deviation from the straight and narrow.  Satanas, if I remember correctly, represents the forces which tempt or attract the individual away from that path and creates a resistance to 'self' sacrifice.  I would suggest that it is the practising of the method which is important rather than the theology which swamps the mind.

[Bramble]

Thanks, ekim. 'Straight and narrow' seems an odd and rather unattractive phrase - presumably a reference to Matthew 7.14. Makes me think of some of my old school teachers, who were pretty straight and narrow, at least their instruments of correction usually were. Probably accounts for my preference for meandering.

[Bramble]

Stilling the ego - what does that actually mean?

Maybe that's just what happens when the sparkle goes out of it, like with mineral water.

[ekim]

Thanks, ekim. 'Straight and narrow' seems an odd and rather unattractive phrase - presumably a reference to Matthew 7.14. Makes me think of some of my old school teachers, who were pretty straight and narrow, at least their instruments of correction usually were. Probably accounts for my preference for meandering.

Yes, it's not an expression I would normally use but I tried to keep my comments within the context of this Christian topic.  'Spare the rod and spoil the child' didn't work for me either.