Searching for GOD...

[Sebastian Toe]

The earth's orbit is easily verified and predictable.

It is impossible to verify that every one of the billions of specific mutations involved in generating life on this earth were caused by random events.

That is why unguided evolution can never be claimed as a fact.

It is impossible to verify that any of the billions of specific mutations involved in generating life on this earth were caused by guided events.

That is why guided evolution can never be claimed as a fact.

[ippy]

If my assertions are pre determined, they are inevitable reactions, not assertions.

Have you ever heard that saying about being away with the fairies Alan?

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy

[Maeght]

If my assertions are pre determined, they are inevitable reactions, not assertions.

Nope. They are assertions regardless of whether they are free or predetermined in origin.

[Alan Burns]

Nope. They are assertions regardless of whether they are free or predetermined in origin.

Dictionary definition of assertion:
noun: assertion; plural noun: assertions

    a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief.

[Shaker]

Dictionary definition of assertion:
noun: assertion; plural noun: assertions

    a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief.

Yours fall into the category of belief, not fact.

OED: fact: A thing known or proved to be true.

[Sebastian Toe]

noun
a positive statement or declaration, 
often without support or reason

[Shaker]

noun
a positive statement or declaration,
often without support or reason

Apply cold water to burned area! 

[Maeght]

Dictionary definition of assertion:
noun: assertion; plural noun: assertions

    a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief.

And where does it say anything about the origin of that statement? Why do you think putting up that definition helps regarding free will or predetermination?

[ippy]

Dictionary definition of assertion:
noun: assertion; plural noun: assertions

    a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief.

Of course an assertion can be a fact or a belief, it's only a fact when accompanied by viable evidence, no viable evidence, it's a belief; their's no way around that Alan.

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy

[Alan Burns]

Yours fall into the category of belief, not fact.

OED: fact: A thing known or proved to be true.

My assertions concerning God's existence and the existence of our spiritual soul are what I know to be true, but I can't prove this to others solely by mere words - so I endeavour to show them the possibility of it being true in the hope that it will enable them to consider starting a journey of faith which will lead them to God.

[Shaker]

Fruitlessly.

[Maeght]

My assertions concerning God's existence and the existence of our spiritual soul are what I know to be true, but I can't prove this to others solely by mere words - so I endeavour to show them the possibility of it being true in the hope that it will enable them to consider starting a journey of faith which will lead them to God.

So a belief then, not a fact.

[ippy]

My assertions concerning God's existence and the existence of our spiritual soul are what I know to be true, but I can't prove this to others solely by mere words - so I endeavour to show them the possibility of it being true in the hope that it will enable them to consider starting a journey of faith which will lead them to God.

Of course it's a posability souls etc exist in just the same way pixies could possibly exist, though unlikely due to the lack of any viable evidence for either.

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy

[torridon]

My assertions concerning God's existence and the existence of our spiritual soul are what I know to be true, but I can't prove this to others solely by mere words - so I endeavour to show them the possibility of it being true in the hope that it will enable them to consider starting a journey of faith which will lead them to God.

I don't see any value in a journey that would lead me into believing a whole bunch of incorrect incoherent claims, that is not a direction that appeals to me, and that fact that you characterise it as a 'journey' speaks volumes about the real nature of such invitations.  A truth claim is either true or it is not, and if we have to go on some sort of 'journey' in order to find it true, then it probably isn't true and said journey is naught but a process of mind conditioning that tempts one away from the mental disciplines of critical thinking.  You don't demonstrate God Alan, all you actually demonstrate is deep confusion, incredulity, sloppy thinking and a dogmatic fixedness of mind, all of which is no end point that I would ever want to get to.

[Sriram]

I don't see any value in a journey that would lead me into believing a whole bunch of incorrect incoherent claims, that is not a direction that appeals to me, and that fact that you characterise it as a 'journey' speaks volumes about the real nature of such invitations.  A truth claim is either true or it is not, and if we have to go on some sort of 'journey' in order to find it true, then it probably isn't true and said journey is naught but a process of mind conditioning that tempts one away from the mental disciplines of critical thinking.  You don't demonstrate God Alan, all you actually demonstrate is deep confusion, incredulity, sloppy thinking and fixedness of mind, all of which is no end point that I would ever want to get to.

If you believe in an entirely deterministic world, you cannot object to peoples beliefs and their life style. We cannot reform criminals, we cannot cure illnesses....and so on.

The very point of civilization is that we can control our lives, we can discipline ourselves, we can control our minds and our instincts.

So, there clearly is an element of self Will inherent in the human  consciousness.

[Nearly Sane]

If you believe in an entirely deterministic world, you cannot object to peoples beliefs and their life style. We cannot reform criminals, we cannot cure illnesses....and so on.

The very point of civilization is that we can control our lives, we can discipline ourselves, we can control our minds and our instincts.

So, there clearly is an element of self Will inherent in the human  consciousness.

Except you can simply because you might have no choice but to do even if it means one is being inconsistent. Your 'clearly' here is not based on any logical argument but is a mere assertion of truth.


Given Alan has so far failed to put forward a logically coherent explanation of how determinism can be avoided, do you want to try?

[torridon]

If you believe in an entirely deterministic world, you cannot object to peoples beliefs and their life style. We cannot reform criminals, we cannot cure illnesses....and so on.

Eh ?  clearly we can cure illnesses etc.  The above is merely a false equivalence.

[Maeght]

If you believe in an entirely deterministic world, you cannot object to peoples beliefs and their life style. We cannot reform criminals, we cannot cure illnesses....and so on.

The very point of civilization is that we can control our lives, we can discipline ourselves, we can control our minds and our instincts.

So, there clearly is an element of self Will inherent in the human  consciousness.

Deterministic world doesn't mean you can't change things. In such a world people can be 'reprogrammed' to respond differently in situations by study, training, learning etc We are not permanently fixed in our responses over a period of time only at any one moment.

It is not clear at all that we have an element of self will at all.

[Alan Burns]

Deterministic world doesn't mean you can't change things. In such a world people can be 'reprogrammed' to respond differently in situations by study, training, learning etc We are not permanently fixed in our responses over a period of time only at any one moment.

It is not clear at all that we have an element of self will at all.

Frankly it amazes me to see how fellow human beings can consciously deny the reality of their God given freedom.

The irony being that without their God given freedom they would have no choice in the matter.

[Sebastian Toe]

Frankly it amazes me to see how fellow human beings can consciously deny the reality of their God given freedom.

The irony being that without their God given freedom they would have no choice in the matter.

Frankly it amazes me the amount of guff that people are prepared to swallow and then publicly regurgitate in order to feed their illogical need for souls to exist.

[Alan Burns]

Frankly it amazes me the amount of guff that people are prepared to swallow and then publicly regurgitate in order to feed their illogical need for souls to exist.

And how did your response originate?
Was it just an inevitable, uncontrollable consequence driven by nothing but the physically pre determined reactions to past events?

[Nearly Sane]

Frankly it amazes me to see how fellow human beings can consciously deny the reality of their God given freedom.

The irony being that without their God given freedom they would have no choice in the matter.

Back to your usual tactic of saying people are lying about what they think

[torridon]

And how did your response originate?
Was it just an inevitable, uncontrollable consequence driven by nothing but the physically pre determined reactions to past events?

The word 'response' should give you a clue.  In reality nothing comes out of the blue.  A 'response' is a consequence of something prior, that much should be clear.

[Alan Burns]

The word 'response' should give you a clue.  In reality nothing comes out of the blue.  A 'response' is a consequence of something prior, that much should be clear.

Of course.

But does it originate from the consciously controlled will of the human soul?
Or is it fully determined by an uncontrollable, physically pre defined sequence of reactions?

(and there is still the freedom to choose not to respond)

[torridon]

Of course.

But does it originate from the consciously controlled will of the human soul?
Or is it fully determined by an uncontrollable, physically pre defined sequence of reactions?

If it's a binary choice I'll go with the latter; it seems to me true that things happen for a reason, and the latter recognises that. 

The former is based on fantasy, given we have no evidence for 'souls' as you like to paint them, and also from my own personal experience, I know that I cannot 'consciously control' my will.  I want the things I want, I don't the things I don't want and that is a founding truth on which all minds work.  You cannot choose to want something you don't want.