Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Human free will is central to Christian faith, in which the soul is accountable for our chosen actions.  If we have no free will, our faith would be meaningless. It would also be impossible, because without our God given freedom to think there can be no possibility of faith in anything.

Say hello to Florence, Dylan, Dougal and the rest of the gang on the magic roundabout for me. It's a wonder you're not dizzy at the circularity of that would-be argument.

[torridon]

But we do have control, Torri
If we have no control, then we can have no confidence in what we write.

OK, then demonstrate by it wanting something you don't want, or believing something you don't believe.  Your notion of control is not just wrong, it's inconceivable.

[torridon]

But I am not assuming something to be true.
I am able to demonstrate my freedom to choose in what I consciously choose to write.  If any conceived logic denies me this obvious freedom, then it is flawed.

OK, then demonstrate it by wanting something you don't want, or believing something you don't believe.  Your notion of freedom of choice is not just wrong, it's inconceivable.

[torridon]

That still does not detract that an intelligent enough mechanism could handle all survival functions without recourse to the experience of awareness.

That 'intelligent enough mechanism' is conscious awareness, in some or other of it's flavours.  Consciousness evolved as a survival mechanism in creatures with external sensory apparatus.

[Alan Burns]

Christian faith is in general terms illogical. If you have a omni god, as most Christian faith argues, this is the only and best possible world. .......

No
We are not in heaven yet

[Alan Burns]

OK, then demonstrate by it wanting something you don't want, or believing something you don't believe.  Your notion of control is not just wrong, it's inconceivable.

As I have said previously, we can't choose what to believe - it has to be discerned.
And in order to discern, we need freedom to think - to control our thought processes.
Without this freedom nothing can be consciously discerned.

And if (as you have previously claimed) all our thought processes occur in our subconscious before we become aware of them - how can you possibly discern anything?

[Maeght]

Human free will is central to Christian faith, in which the soul is accountable for our chosen actions.  If we have no free will, our faith would be meaningless.  It would also be impossible, because without our God given freedom to think there can be no possibility of faith in anything.

Bingo!

[Alan Burns]

That 'intelligent enough mechanism' is conscious awareness, in some or other of it's flavours.  Consciousness evolved as a survival mechanism in creatures with external sensory apparatus.

Conscious awareness is not a mechanism.
It is perception of information.

[Nearly Sane]

No
We are not in heaven yet

Doesn't matter if your god is the omnis. Then this has to be not only the best but the only world that can exist. Your god chose to kill my friend of skin cancer at 28. You love your god. You love a thug.

[wigginhall]

Evasion noted

Evasions by the bucket load, but it's what Jesus would have wanted.

[torridon]

As I have said previously, we can't choose what to believe - it has to be discerned.
And in order to discern, we need freedom to think - to control our thought processes.
Without this freedom nothing can be consciously discerned.

And if (as you have previously claimed) all our thought processes occur in our subconscious before we become aware of them - how can you possibly discern anything?

it is not the case that 'discernment' is something that only happens in conscious mind, there is subconscious perception in which we perceive and react to stimuli before 'we' get to 'know' about it in conscious mind. But the extent to which these things are conscious or subconscious is largely irrelevant, these considerations just add a layer of confusion on top of the fundamental principal of how minds have evolved to resolve choice, which is, that we resolve choice by identifying the option that has most appeal at the moment of choice and we cannot choose how much, or how little, something appeals to us.  With no control over it, there is no freedom.  On what possible basis could I choose to like something I don't like.  Your thinking makes just no sense.

[torridon]

Conscious awareness is not a mechanism.
It is perception of information.

Of course consciousness is a survival mechanism.  Do you really think that an unconscious animal and a conscious one have equal chances of survival ?

If I inject you with Propofol now it will interfere with the normal waking cerebral functioning that is know as consciousness.  Happens in hospitals throughout the land, day in day out.

[Shaker]

If I inject you with Propofol now it will interfere with the normal waking cerebral functioning that is know as consciousness.

But would anybody notice?

[Rhiannon]

Human free will is central to Christian faith, in which the soul is accountable for our chosen actions.  If we have no free will, our faith would be meaningless.  It would also be impossible, because without our God given freedom to think there can be no possibility of faith in anything.

Which is why you cling onto it without even listening to the reasoned arguments of others.

[Rhiannon]

Evasions by the bucket load, but it's what Jesus would have wanted.

Wants, Wiggs. Present tense.

[Shaker]

Which is why you cling onto it without even listening to the reasoned arguments of others.

I thought there had been numerous and multiple "For crying out loud, this finally has to be the end of this shit, surely" moments in this nonsense. But if this isn't it, I don't know what is.

[Stranger]

Not only have I never denied it, I've included it every time I describe the process. However, you need to recognise that said current state comes about due to the system's initial state and its history - in human terms it amounts to the combined effect of nature, nurture, and experience; what has made you and me the people we are.

Which is just a long winded way of avoiding the logic yet again.

The point being that if all the factors that influence this "entity of awareness existing in the present state"'s choice (including its own current state of mind) do not fully define (drive it to) only one choice, then, to the extent that they don't, the choice must be random because it is based on nothing (all the possible influencing factors have already been taken into account) and a choice based on nothing must be random.
 
Cue more evasion...

But it is you who are guilty of evasion.
In all your posts you do not acknowledge or consider the power of human will, which gives us freedom to choose, freedom to think, freedom to pray, freedom to choose our destiny.

And there it is. You have totally ignored the argument I presented in favour of misrepresenting what I've said.

Any chance at all of facing up to the actual argument or are you too afraid to?

[Stranger]

Being personally accused of evasion also infers that I am doing it deliberately.  Surely evasion would in itself be demonstrable evidence of my conscious ability to choose.

FFS Alan, how many times do you need it pointing out that your ability to do things deliberately in no way demonstrates that you are not making those choices deterministically?

Why endlessly repeat 'arguments' that have been addressed countless times before?

[SusanDoris]

Any chance at all of facing up to the actual argument or are you too afraid to?

I don't get the impression of too afraid to face up, it seems to me far more like arrogance.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That 'intelligent enough mechanism' is conscious awareness, in some or other of it's flavours.  Consciousness evolved as a survival mechanism in creatures with external sensory apparatus.

Any evidence for and beyond this mere assertion ?

Also you make an unwarranted equation of consciousness and intelligence completely ignoring the claim made by many on this thread that the awareness or consciousness is merely informed and everything is done by the subconscious before the conscious knows about it.

The above contradicts you. So are your chums right or are you? Since if the subconscious is carrying out all the activities we come back to the question...what is the consciousness for?

[Alan Burns]

Doesn't matter if your god is the omnis. Then this has to be not only the best but the only world that can exist. Your god chose to kill my friend of skin cancer at 28. You love your god. You love a thug.

Sorry, but in this post you are showing complete ignorance of what is revealed to us in the Christian bible.

[Alan Burns]

OK, then demonstrate it by wanting something you don't want, or believing something you don't believe.  Your notion of freedom of choice is not just wrong, it's inconceivable.

Our freedom to choose is limited to what is feasible.  But this limitation does not take away our freedom to choose.  Choices are limited within feasible constrains, but they are still conscious choices.  And our freedom to choose and to manipulate our own thought patterns is evidenced by your ability to construct logical arguments to support your conclusions - even though they are obviously wrong - because your conclusions deny you the freedom of thought needed to reach those conclusions.

[Alan Burns]

FFS Alan, how many times do you need it pointing out that your ability to do things deliberately in no way demonstrates that you are not making those choices deterministically?

Our contention is in what determines our consciously controlled deliberation.  If, as Torri keeps asserting, all our choices are pre determined within our sub conscious before we become aware of them, then whatever we say or do can't be classified as a deliberate action because in effect it will just be an automated reaction under the control of physically pre defined brain activity.  If you maintain that we are capable of deliberate actions you need to identify what is ultimately responsible for initiating a deliberate action.

Your contention that everything is defined by the combined effect of nature, nurture, and experience does not comply with a deliberate action, because it precludes the concept of conscious choice.

From the online dictionary:
deliberate
adjective: deliberate

    1.
    done consciously and intentionally.

[Stranger]

Our contention is in what determines our consciously controlled deliberation.  If, as Torri keeps asserting, all our choices are pre determined within our sub conscious before we become aware of them...

As I've said before (why can't you at least pay attention?) the relationship between the conscious and subconscious is irrelevant to whether our choices are made deterministically.

Once again you have ignored the logic I presented in #29910 as you have consistently throughout this discussion. Come on! Have some intellectual courage and honesty and point out what you think is wrong with it or admit you can't.

Here it is again:-

If all the factors that influence a choice (including your current state of mind) do not fully define only one choice, then, to the extent that they don't, the choice must be random because it is based on nothing (all the possible influencing factors have already been taken into account) and a choice based on nothing must be random.

Cue yet more evasion...

[Alan Burns]

If all the factors that influence a choice (including your current state of mind) do not fully define only one choice ....

All the factors you list influence a choice, but the final choice is determined by your conscious will.  This is reality.  This is what makes us human.  Your above statement implies that there can be only one choice, but this, by definition, means there is effectively no choice.