Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3866429 times)

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30175 on: July 23, 2018, 06:28:37 PM »
The human soul will gain more control as the physical biological machine develops and grows.

So we see the conscious willpower gradually come to the fore as they develop into adults.

So, do 'souls' develop as children develop?

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30176 on: July 23, 2018, 06:39:00 PM »
The human soul will gain more control as the physical biological machine develops and grows.

So we see the conscious willpower gradually come to the fore as they develop into adults.
I suck in my teeth with a cringe at these cloyingly, sentimental platitudes. Well, they're not even platitudes.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30177 on: July 23, 2018, 06:46:29 PM »
So, do 'souls' develop as children develop?
The soul exists.
It is the biological body, and its associated controls which develop and allow the soul to interact.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30178 on: July 23, 2018, 06:50:00 PM »
You can feel Alan hanging on by the skin of his teeth, with his non-answers. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30179 on: July 23, 2018, 07:00:20 PM »
The soul exists.
It is the biological body, and its associated controls which develop and allow the soul to interact.

What controls does the body use to facilitate the interaction of the 'soul'?

I'm wondering, you see, if in the case of children these 'souls' aren't mature, hence childish decisions are made by the 'souls' of children and as the child matures so does it's 'soul': if so, what is the point of this 'soul' if it can't intervene to prevent immature decisions being taken by immature people?


Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30180 on: July 23, 2018, 07:01:43 PM »
The logical argument is simple.

So why can't you actually post it?

In a closed system under nothing but physically controlled reactions to events, consciously driven control can't exist because every event is an inevitable,uncontrollable reaction to previous events.

You have explained neither how that precludes "consciously driven control" (personal incredulity aside) nor how having a non-physical soul would make a jot of difference to every event "being an inevitable,uncontrollable reaction to previous events" without introducing randomness.

Consciously driven control is incompatible with physically controlled determinism.

So this remains a totally baseless assertion.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30181 on: July 23, 2018, 07:11:56 PM »
The human soul will gain more control as the physical biological machine develops and grows.

So we see the conscious willpower gradually come to the fore as they develop into adults.
What is stopping the soul coming to the fore?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30182 on: July 23, 2018, 07:16:05 PM »
This is the core of Alan's assertions, conscious control is incompatible with physical determinism.  He never explains why, but resorts to incredulity.  How can you believe that ....?

It's the old brain mind puzzle, but Alan just knows that brain cannot produce mnd.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30183 on: July 23, 2018, 07:20:46 PM »
The human soul will gain more control as the physical biological machine develops and grows.

So we see the conscious willpower gradually come to the fore as they develop into adults.

Ah - I suspect you're conflating your 'soul' idea with biology.

Here's another - when it comes to creative people: let's say jazz musicians who can improvise (the late great Joe Pass on guitar for example): is it their 'soul' that is doing the improvising for them?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30184 on: July 23, 2018, 07:56:30 PM »
And what precisely is a flow of awareness? ???
(in physical terms)

See Seb Toe in #30165 for an explanation that was as succinct as it was spot on

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30185 on: July 23, 2018, 10:35:16 PM »
What is stopping the soul coming to the fore?
The physical limitations of the brain - until it grows to maturity.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30186 on: July 23, 2018, 10:37:41 PM »
The physical limitations of the brain - until it grows to maturity.
What physical limitations are those?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30187 on: July 24, 2018, 07:05:14 AM »
So please explain how you can introduce consciously driven control into a closed system entirely under the control of the physically pre defined events of cause and effect?

Why can you not accept that human willpower can invoke a choice from within its conscious awareness by interacting with the physical brain?

Because that makes no sense, that is why. Choices are made by a brain, we do not interact with a brain to tell it what choices to make.  Brains evolved to make optimal choices.  The idea that brains need another brain to tell them what choices to make is both bizarre and baseless.  There is no evidence to support such a notion and it is logically incoherent implying a regress.  Conscious awareness is not a separate thing to a brain, it is produced by brain functioning to better prioritise awareness, but it is not a separate thing to that which produces it.

You seem to have a mental blockage around the concept of 'physical'.  There isn't a separate domain of logic for things that are 'physical'. Two plus two will equal four irrespective of the nature of the things being added. If someone on my team makes two suggestions for improvements and another guy makes two suggestions, then we have four suggestions.  If I buy two apples from one stall and another two from another stall, then I will have four apples. The fact that apples are 'physical' does not alter the logic and we cannot deny the logic of the situation by the claim 'but they are physical'.  That is just a trivial ploy to try to deny the underlying truth.

You seem to have a mental blockage around the concept of 'control'.  I can control my hands and arms by willing them to move.  Likewise an elephant can control its trunk, a more complicated business in terms of the neurology required.  If brains alone were insufficient to do the translation of desire and intention into motor action then every creature on the planet would be dead already, being totally immobile, unable to will their limbs to move. The fact that humans can do this derives from the fact that great apes can do this, and so on. What we cannot control is the subliminal preconscious functioning that gives rise to desires and intentions in the first place. I cannot look up at the sky and choose to experience it as green, we have no control over that. I cannot put a strawberry in my mouth and choose to find it tastes of garlic, I have no control over that.  We have no control over the fundamental primitives of how we interact with the wider cosmos, functioning at these base levels is entirely consistent with a deterministic account of nature.  Concepts of 'control' and 'freedom' at higher levels of biological complexity are useful concepts at those levels of emergence, they are essentially feelings produced by mind at the interface between thoughts and actions and although we live our lives almost exclusively in those higher domains of emergence does not mean that feelings do not derive from an underlying substrate of biological functioning which is entirely deterministic.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 07:11:49 AM by torridon »

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30188 on: July 24, 2018, 07:51:49 AM »
torridon #30,187

A pleasure to read - as are all the logical, rational posts in between the increasingly bizarre posts of AB.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30189 on: July 24, 2018, 09:31:12 AM »

You seem to have a mental blockage around the concept of 'physical'.
No.
I just illustrate the limitations of anything derived from physically controlled behaviour of material particles
Quote
You seem to have a mental blockage around the concept of 'control'.  I can control my hands and arms by willing them to move. 
Yes, but what invokes this act of will?
Do you have the power to control the laws of physics?
Or do you have the conscious power to interact with them?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 09:54:14 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30190 on: July 24, 2018, 09:51:48 AM »
It is an integration of multiple streams of information flow into a singular flow of experience.
But what perceives this information?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30191 on: July 24, 2018, 09:57:31 AM »
No.
I just illustrate the limitations of anything derived from physically controlled behaviour of material particlesYes, but what invokes this act of will?

Fallacy of composition.

Quote
Do you have the power to control the laws of physics?

No

Quote
Or do you have the conscious power to interact with them?

My brain does.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30192 on: July 24, 2018, 10:07:11 AM »
No.
I just illustrate the limitations of anything derived from physically controlled behaviour of material particles

Principles of logic apply to all things, irrespective of whether those things are 'material' or not. We cannot go around making incoherent claims justifying them on the basis that 'they aren't physical'.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 10:14:55 AM by torridon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30193 on: July 24, 2018, 10:08:42 AM »


My brain does.
But if your brain is itself composed of material particles, the behaviour of which are entirely dictated by the laws of physics, you can't consciously interact with anything.  You can only react in accordance with the laws over which you have no control.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30194 on: July 24, 2018, 10:09:55 AM »
No.
I just illustrate the limitations of anything derived from physically controlled behaviour of material particlesYes, but what invokes this act of will?
Do you have the power to control the laws of physics?
Or do you have the conscious power to interact with them?

We don't control the laws of physics; our 'conscious power' is an outcome of the laws of physics, it does not create or alter them; to claim so would be circular. We operate within the laws of nature.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30195 on: July 24, 2018, 10:11:19 AM »
No.
I just illustrate the limitations of anything derived from physically controlled behaviour of material particles

Which is totally irrelevant. The limitations of the physical that are important to your 'argument' are logical ones that would apply to any choice making entity at all. You can't have any part of a choice that is not entirely due to pre-existing reasons (not "predetermined") but entirely due to pre-existing reasons as well (not random).

See?
  • This choice was made entirely for the pre-existing reasons.
  • This choice was not made entirely for the pre-existing reasons.
One or other must be true but not both. If you choose 1, then the choice was fully deterministic ("predetermined"), if 2, then it involved something random.

And, no you can't magic a reason (from the "human will") into existence at the instant of choosing because that must either happen for pre-exiting reasons or not, too.

Notice how none of this has anything to do with the physical brain - it applies just as much to any soul you want to postulate.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30196 on: July 24, 2018, 10:12:06 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Alan Burns on Today at 09:31:12 AM

I just illustrate the limitations of anything derived from physically controlled behaviour of material particles.
Fallacy of composition.

Why?
Please explain
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30197 on: July 24, 2018, 10:25:15 AM »
Which is totally irrelevant. The limitations of the physical that are important to your 'argument' are logical ones that would apply to any choice making entity at all. You can't have any part of a choice that is not entirely due to pre-existing reasons (not "predetermined") but entirely due to pre-existing reasons as well (not random).

See?
  • This choice was made entirely for the pre-existing reasons.
  • This choice was not made entirely for the pre-existing reasons.
One or other must be true but not both. If you choose 1, then the choice was fully deterministic ("predetermined"), if 2, then it involved something random.

And, no you can't magic a reason (from the "human will") into existence at the instant of choosing because that must either happen for pre-exiting reasons or not, too.

Notice how none of this has anything to do with the physical brain - it applies just as much to any soul you want to postulate.
The concept of physical is entirely relevant.
From the secular point of view, everything is entirely derived from the physically deterministic behaviour of material particles.
Every event is pre determined by the laws of physics.

If there is such a thing as a spiritual soul, the soul will not be subject to the pre determined behaviour of physical particles.  Whatever capabilities the soul has will be subject to its own spiritual nature, which is beyond the understanding of any human being.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30198 on: July 24, 2018, 10:27:55 AM »
We don't control the laws of physics; our 'conscious power' is an outcome of the laws of physics, it does not create or alter them; to claim so would be circular. We operate within the laws of nature.
Yes, we operate within the laws of nature, but does nature control us?  Or are you in control?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30199 on: July 24, 2018, 10:37:30 AM »
The concept of physical is entirely relevant.

No, it isn't and it's been explained to you many times.

From the secular point of view, everything is entirely derived from the physically deterministic behaviour of material particles.
Every event is pre determined by the laws of physics.

If there is such a thing as a spiritual soul, the soul will not be subject to the pre determined behaviour of physical particles.

Nobody said that it would. Now how about addressing the purely logical argument I actually presented instead of this "physically predetermined, physical particles" straw man argument that you keep pointlessly constructing and then pulling down?

Whatever capabilities the soul has will be subject to its own spiritual nature, which is beyond the understanding of any human being.

So basically, it's so magic it doesn't need to be logically self-consistent? So much for you having a logical argument...    ::)
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