Searching for GOD...

[Stranger]

But biology does not have any feasible mechanism to facilitate our human freedom to perform consciously driven acts of will.

On the one hand, the problem is that you have a logically impossible notion of "freedom" so of course there is no feasible mechanism in biology simply because there is no feasible mechanism full stop - it's logically impossible.

On the other hand, if you adopt a logical notion of 'freedom', then, although we don't know all about how it works, you cannot possibly rule out a biological explanation and that is what all the evidence is telling us.

[torridon]

But biology does not have any feasible mechanism to facilitate our human freedom to perform consciously driven acts of will.

Unsurprising, since your account of free will is inherently unfeasible.

[Alan Burns]

On the one hand, the problem is that you have a logically impossible notion of "freedom" so of course there is no feasible mechanism in biology simply because there is no feasible mechanism full stop - it's logically impossible.

On the other hand, if you adopt a logical notion of 'freedom', then, although we don't know all about how it works, you cannot possibly rule out a biological explanation and that is what all the evidence is telling us.

Your logical notion of freedom is just a mechanistic reaction - not freedom at all.

Our freedom is real.  A wonderful gift beyond all human understanding.  Let us use it and rejoice in our ability to use this amazing gift.  And our ability to discern purpose and meaning in our lives is no accident.  With our gift of freewill we are able to consciously take control of our lives to achieve our perceived goals - an impossible task to achieve within the physically pre determined scenario of material reactions.

[Shaker]

... he asserted without evidence (again).

[torridon]

Your logical notion of freedom is just a mechanistic reaction - not freedom at all.

Our freedom is real.  A wonderful gift beyond all human understanding.  Let us use it and rejoice in our ability to use this amazing gift.  And our ability to discern purpose and meaning in our lives is no accident.  With our gift of freewill we are able to consciously take control of our lives to achieve our perceived goals - an impossible task to achieve within the physically pre determined scenario of material reactions.

I see more reason to rejoice in our ability to understand things.  You might be happy to close things off as mysteries beyond understanding, but if we were all like that, we would not have prescription medicines or cars or satellites in orbit monitoring forest depletion.  The choice is whether to remain in blissful ignorance, or do we use that ("god given") intellect to figure out how things work.

[SusanDoris]

I see more reason to rejoice in our ability to understand things.  You might be happy to close things off as mysteries beyond understanding, but if we were all like that, we would not have prescription medicines or cars or satellites in orbit monitoring forest depletion.  The choice is whether to remain in blissful ignorance, or do we use that ("god given") intellect to figure out how things work.

Although how any thinking person could  considerignorance blissful when knowledge and understanding are so much more exciting and fulfilling is something definitely not for me.

[Stranger]

Your logical notion of freedom is just a mechanistic reaction - not freedom at all.

I guess you're free to look at it like that but, as we are all free to be the people we are, express our personalities, and opinions within a perfectly logical and self-consistent framework, I am free to disagree with you.

Our freedom is real.

Your version of freedom is impossible nonsense, utterly meaningless.

A wonderful gift beyond all human understanding.

Taken together with your first sentence, I assume you are simply abandoning any claim that what you say is logical, reasonable, or based on evidence.

At least that's honest.

With our gift of freewill we are able to consciously take control of our lives to achieve our perceived goals - an impossible task to achieve within the physically pre determined scenario of material reactions.

Irrelevant and deceptive words deleted and the remaining claim that it is impossible, is just another illogical assertion.

[ippy]

Alan try a read of some of the works of Dorothy Rowe Her quotes would be a good start.

Dorothy's an Australian that spends about a half of her time here in the UK and is often to be heard on the BBC giving talks about the many different aspects of psychology.

I noted the last time I heard her speak, I can't remember verbatim, but she did indicate that she was grateful to the various religions for supplying her with a good living where she was able to help sort out the various problems people have associated with unnecessary feelings of guilt etc all with a faith/belief connection, there were other reasons she spoke about where the various religions had adversely affected the believers but unnecessary guilt was the main one she referred to.

She's written a few book on depression etc, she's all in all a good all rounder that's considered to be something of a world voice about her subject psychology.

I really do think she would at the very least make you have a really good think and stir that stuff you have sitting between your ears, I can't make you read her stuff but I can recommend her writings to you.

Commiserations Alan, ippy 

[savillerow]

AB "A wonderful gift beyond all human understanding" I despair in this day and age. We gotta get this sorted before I fall off the perch.

[wigginhall]

Why bother?  There will always be closed minds, just keep them out of education.

[ippy]

AB "A wonderful gift beyond all human understanding" I despair in this day and age. We gotta get this sorted before I fall off the perch.

There's a quote something including Gungerdin I'm sure you've heard it Savill.

How ya doing by the way?

Regards ippy

[ippy]

Why bother?  There will always be closed minds, just keep them out of education.

Seconded.

ippy

[SusanDoris]

AB "A wonderful gift beyond all human understanding" I despair in this day and age. We gotta get this sorted before I fall off the perch.

Thank you - that really made me laugh!!! :D:D

[Alan Burns]

Irrelevant and deceptive words deleted and the remaining claim that it is impossible, is just another illogical assertion.

The words physical and predetermined are entirely relevant because our knowledge of physically predetermined reactions on material elements is entirely predictable and applicable to the functionality of a material brain.  The concepts of consciously driven choices and control are totally incompatible with this materialist scenario.

We know how physical determinism works because we can predict its outcome.

We do not have the same knowledge of spiritual determinism, but the evidence of its existence lies in our ability to make consciously driven choices for which each individual takes personal responsibility.  A responsibility which can't be wholly attributed to the uncontrollable laws and reactions involved in physical determinism.

[wigginhall]

We do not have the same knowledge of spiritual determinism - it's the way he tells them, isn't it?

[Alan Burns]

We do not have the same knowledge of spiritual determinism - it's the way he tells them, isn't it?

We do not know how gravity works or what it comprises, but we know of its existence because of what it does.

We do not know how the human soul works, or what it comprises, but we know of its existence because of what it does.

It gives us consciously driven freedom to choose between good and evil, love and hate, forgiveness and revenge, charity and selfishness ......

And it gives us the power to seek God, which we are free to use or discard.

And it gives us the power to choose our own destiny.

[Gordon]

We do not have the same knowledge of spiritual determinism,....

Which is begging the question: we have no knowledge of 'spiritual determinism' because there are no theories of methods that in any sense allow investigation in order to gain knowledge. It is, as things stand, just a made-up notion.

... but the evidence of its existence lies in our ability to make consciously driven choices for which each individual takes personal responsibility.  A responsibility which can't be wholly attributed to the uncontrollable laws and reactions involved in physical determinism.

There is no evidence, for the reasons noted above - there is just your personal incredulity (plus the assorted other fallacies you employ).

[Stranger]

The words physical and predetermined are entirely relevant because our knowledge of physically predetermined reactions on material elements is entirely predictable and applicable to the functionality of a material brain.

FFS Alan, how many more times? Every now-and-then it seems to sink in that you have a problem with logic, not physics, then off you go again with your pointless "predetermined" and "physical" as if it's never happened.

Once again: either the mind is a deterministic system or not. That's a question that is independent from the question of whether minds are physical or not - it applies in either case.

Either we make choices entirely because of the pre-existing circumstances (internal and external) or not (which means there is some randomness).

There is no assumption of a physical mind in those questions.

The concepts of consciously driven choices and control are totally incompatible with this materialist scenario.

Baseless assertion (again).

We do not have the same knowledge of spiritual determinism...

There aren't different types of determinism - adding the word "spiritual" means nothing - the same logical questions (above) apply. It's totally dishonest of you to pretend that they are based on the physical and that making the mind "spiritual" makes them go away.

The only way you can avoid them is by saying that you don't think logic (just logic, not "physical" logic) applies in the magic world of the soul. If you're prepared to abandon logic, that's fine but don't pretend that you aren't, that it's to do with the physical, or that you have any logic to back up your point of view.

...but the evidence of its existence lies in our ability to make consciously driven choices...

This is tantamount to lying. Every single conjecture about the mind attempts to explain our experience - it's simply dishonest to pretend that only yours can do so (especially as yours is logically impossible).

A responsibility which can't be wholly attributed to the uncontrollable laws involved in physical determinism.

Baseless assertion (again).

[Gordon]

We do not know how gravity works or what it comprises, but we know of its existence because of what it does.

So we have verifiable and repeatable evidence for gravity - tell us something we don't know, Alan.

We do not know how the human soul works, or what it comprises, but we know of its existence because of what it does.

No we don't: and you know that, or should do unless you are immune to reason and logic

It gives us consciously driven freedom to choose between good and evil, love and hate, forgiveness and revenge, charity and selfishness ......

And it gives us the power to seek God, which we are free to use or discard.

And it gives us the power to choose our own destiny.

Thank you for your statement of faith, Alan, albeit that it consists of nothing but a pile of fallacious nonsense (I can't even be bothered to point of the fallacies because, as I said, it is clear that you are immune to reason and logic.

[wigginhall]

We do not know how gravity works or what it comprises, but we know of its existence because of what it does.

We do not know how the human soul works, or what it comprises, but we know of its existence because of what it does.

It gives us consciously driven freedom to choose between good and evil, love and hate, forgiveness and revenge, charity and selfishness ......

And it gives us the power to seek God, which we are free to use or discard.

And it gives us the power to choose our own destiny.

Well, the soul is supernatural, so by definition it can't be investigated.   Presumably you are not claiming that gravity is supernatural?  At any rate, it seems to be investigable and predictable, for example, we can predict gravitational effects in distant galaxies.  So the comparison is ill-judged.

[Alan Burns]

Well, the soul is supernatural, so by definition it can't be investigated.   Presumably you are not claiming that gravity is supernatural?  At any rate, it seems to be investigable and predictable, for example, we can predict gravitational effects in distant galaxies.  So the comparison is ill-judged.

And I can demonstrate my conscious ability to choose - when, where and how I want.

[Gordon]

And I can demonstrate my conscious ability to choose - when, where and how I want.

So you can think and select from available options: well we can all do that, Alan, and all we need is functioning biology.

By the way you never answered my question about 'souls' operate in children.

[wigginhall]

And I can demonstrate my conscious ability to choose - when, where and how I want.

Dishonest as ever.

[torridon]

And I can demonstrate my conscious ability to choose - when, where and how I want.

Which is not 'free' if you have no control over those wants.

Tried wanting something you don't want yet ?  Try it out, then the penny might drop at long last.

[Stranger]

And I can demonstrate my conscious ability to choose - when, where and how I want.

That in no way at all demonstrates the self-contradictory nonsense you claim about "freedom".

In fact, if what you say about "freedom" was actually true, you wouldn't be able to make any choices at all. You've excluded the choice being made entirely for pre-existing reasons ("predetermined") and you've excluded randomness, so there is literally nothing left that could possibly make a choice.

You've made the choice-maker so small it's non-existent.