Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are going into great detail about how our brains might perform data retrieval, but this says nothing about what initiates the initial request for the data or how the request is made.  Your thought experiment reveals nothing about what drives our thought processes.  Have you considered the thought processes involved in solving a cryptic clue in a crossword?  Do you still maintain that it all comes from the subconscious before we become aware of it?

Yes I was wondering whether he did since, if the subconsciousness deals with survival functions without the need for awareness, what survival value does the consciousness have?

[torridon]

You are going into great detail about how our brains might perform data retrieval, but this says nothing about what initiates the initial request for the data or how the request is made.  Your thought experiment reveals nothing about what drives our thought processes.  Have you considered the thought processes involved in solving a cryptic clue in a crossword?  Do you still maintain that it all comes from the subconscious before we become aware of it?

Your subconscious knows all about your desires and intentions and preferences and acts on them on 'our' behalf.  In the thought experiment, Berlin was yielded up to 'me'; somehow it decided of its own accord to come up with Berlin, not London, not Paris, not Madrid. It is making choices on my behalf without 'my' guidance.

We are familiar with this in fast moving situations where conscious thought would slow us down. A cricketer getting ready to swing his bat is making complex calculations derived from ball speed and trajectory and his subconscious mind is instigating hundreds of individual muscle movements in response completely without conscious intervention in order to play the ball.

So, as to your question 'what instigates an initial request for data' we have to bear in mind, that nothing occurs in isolation, thoughts trigger other thoughts; the desire to do the thought experiment for instance in the first place might have been triggered by prior suggestion (perhaps from me).  All thoughts are processed through subconscious mind first.  If you hear someone asking something of you for instance, those patterns of compression waves need to be processed through various levels of perception and cognition before conscious mind 'hears' it and understands it, by which time, your subconscious mind, running ahead, has already started responding, already started to deal with the request

[Alan Burns]

Your subconscious knows all about your desires and intentions and preferences and acts on them on 'our' behalf.  In the thought experiment, Berlin was yielded up to 'me'; somehow it decided of its own accord to come up with Berlin, not London, not Paris, not Madrid. It is making choices on my behalf without 'my' guidance.

We are familiar with this in fast moving situations where conscious thought would slow us down. A cricketer getting ready to swing his bat is making complex calculations derived from ball speed and trajectory and his subconscious mind is instigating hundreds of individual muscle movements in response completely without conscious intervention in order to play the ball.

So, as to your question 'what instigates an initial request for data' we have to bear in mind, that nothing occurs in isolation, thoughts trigger other thoughts; the desire to do the thought experiment for instance in the first place might have been triggered by prior suggestion (perhaps from me).  All thoughts are processed through subconscious mind first.  If you hear someone asking something of you for instance, those patterns of compression waves need to be processed through various levels of cognition before conscious mind 'hears' it and understands it, by which time, your subconscious mind, running ahead, has already started responding, already started to deal with the request

All conjecture, because there is no physical definition for what comprises conscious thoughts.  Neural activity is only part of it.  How does physical neural activity get perceived as a conscious thought?  What perceives information? How is the neural activity controlled?  What controls it?

And still no explanation for how our subconscious can solve a cryptic clue before we are consciously aware of it.

[Sebastian Toe]

You are going into great detail about how our brains might perform data retrieval, but this says nothing about what initiates the initial request for the data or how the request is made.  Your thought experiment reveals nothing about what drives our thought processes.  Have you considered the thought processes involved in solving a cryptic clue in a crossword?  Do you still maintain that it all comes from the subconscious before we become aware of it?

Keep it simple then...what process does your soul invoke when you are asked to give the result of adding together 9 and 17?
That which is completely external to your physical brain.

[torridon]

All conjecture, because there is no physical definition for what comprises conscious thoughts.  Neural activity is only part of it.  How does physical neural activity get perceived as a conscious thought?  What perceives information? How is the neural activity controlled?  What controls it?

And still no explanation for how our subconscious can solve a cryptic clue before we are consciously aware of it.

None of that is conjectural; the truth of the example from cricketing should be evident to anyone who has played fast moving sports.  The truth revealed by the thought experiment is available to anyone who tries it. What research has been done in psychology and in the cognitive sciences backs up these findings of our personal experience. Neural activity is thoughts in action; there is no concept of having to perceive neural activity in order to perceive thoughts; neural activity is thoughts, it is information waves propagating through cortex.  Cryptic clues are solved in the preconscious mind, just as are the calculations of speed and trajectory in a cricketer's mind.

[Alan Burns]

Keep it simple then...what process does your soul invoke when you are asked to give the result of adding together 9 and 17?
That which is completely external to your physical brain.

Physical brain components are needed to solve problems, just as we consciously employ calculators and computers to solve perceived problems.

But problem solving starts with conscious awareness of the problem.  Then this conscious awareness must be capable of deliberately initiating whatever physical processes are needed to solve the problem.  It is all initiated and controlled at the conscious level.  The suggestion that it is all done automatically within our subconscious is quite bizarre.

[Stranger]

Neural activity is only part of it.

How do you know?

How does physical neural activity get perceived as a conscious thought?  What perceives information? How is the neural activity controlled?  What controls it?

How can a soul make a choice that is entirely the result of pre-existing reasons (not random) and not entirely the result of pre-existing reasons (not 'predetermined')?

However speculative you may think the science is, it doesn't involve a glaring self-contradiction or the existence of something for which there is no evidence at all. It really is about time you stopped applying double standards. Once you can explain exactly how consciousness works in the soul, how it interacts with the subconscious, and have some evidence, you will be in a position to criticise the science but while your own idea contains no detail at all, has no evidence, and is logically impossible, you really aren't in a position to do so.

We have all the evidence backed conclusions of science (that fall short of a complete explanation of consciousness) or we have you with a claim that amounts to "it must be self-contradictory magic"...

[Alan Burns]

Cryptic clues are solved in the preconscious mind ........

Sorry, but in making this assertion, surely you are losing all credibility in what you think controls your brain activity.  You seem to be under the illusion that no conscious effort is needed to solve mental problems.

[Gordon]

All conjecture, because there is no physical definition for what comprises conscious thoughts.

So you say, but are you competent to say this?

Neural activity is only part of it.

How do you actually know it isn't all of it?

How does physical neural activity get perceived as a conscious thought?  What perceives information? How is the neural activity controlled?  What controls it?

You're thrashing around again in your trademark incredulous manner as indicated by you use of 'control', which you see as somehow critical. Well your pancreas, if it is working, 'controls' the amount of certain enzymes in your body so perhaps the brain is has sufficient functionality to 'control' all aspects of thinking, and neurologists and psychologists continue to investigate.

And still no explanation for how our subconscious can solve a cryptic clue before we are consciously aware of it.

So the experts keep looking and we await further information without recourse to ridiculous religious superstitions, and we resist a descent into incredulity in the absence of a definitive immediate answer - you should try this approach yourself.

[torridon]

Sorry, but in making this assertion, surely you are losing all credibility in what you think controls your brain activity.  You seem to be under the illusion that no conscious effort is needed to solve mental problems.

It is lower levels of mind that do complex calculations - conscious mind is effectively a memory of the calculations just done.  Could you solve the equations of motions involved in batting in conscious mind ? No way.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How do you actually know it isn't all of it?

Where else does electrical activity result in consciousness or awareness?


I think we are waiting for science to demonstrate it is entirely down to neural activity.

[Alan Burns]

How can a soul make a choice that is entirely the result of pre-existing reasons (not random) and not entirely the result of pre-existing reasons (not 'predetermined')?

Pre existing reasons are part of our conscious awareness.  We are consciously aware of reasons before we initiate a deliberate act of will.  Reasons alone do not dictate our actions.  Our ability to initiate a deliberate act of will is not entirely driven by our perceived reasons - it is simply a consciously driven act of will.  Without our conscious ability to deliberately control our thoughts and actions, we just become biological robots with no will of our own.

[Sebastian Toe]

Physical brain components are needed to solve problems, just as we consciously employ calculators and computers to solve perceived problems.

But problem solving starts with conscious awareness of the problem.  Then this conscious awareness must be capable of deliberately initiating whatever physical processes are needed to solve the problem.  It is all initiated and controlled at the conscious level. 

So your soul initiates the request to the bit of your brain that does "adding up" then it retrieves the result?
This is done consciously?  How?

[Sebastian Toe]

..... it is simply a consciously driven act of will. 

Simple?
How does it work?

[Alan Burns]

It is lower levels of mind that do complex calculations - conscious mind is effectively a memory of the calculations just done.  Could you solve the equations of motions involved in batting in conscious mind ? No way.

But you still need some way of consciously initiating the calculation.

[Gordon]

Where else does electrical activity result in consciousness or awareness?

I think we are waiting for science to demonstrate it is entirely down to neural activity.

So we are, but Alan thinks he already knows enough to exclude neural activity being sufficient - so perhaps you need to address your remarks to him.

[Alan Burns]

Simple?
How does it work?

Just do it - you know it works.  You have control.

[Stranger]

Pre existing reasons are part of our conscious awareness.  We are consciously aware of reasons before we initiate a deliberate act of will.  Reasons alone do not dictate our actions.  Our ability to initiate a deliberate act of will is not entirely driven by our perceived reasons - it is simply a consciously driven act of will.

Once again avoiding the question. I didn't say "perceived reasons" I just said reasons and "simply a consciously driven act of will" must either happen because of some reasons (perceived or unconscious, internal or external, immediate or long standing) or not.

To the extent a "consciously driven act of will" is not due to pre-existing reasons, it is for no reason, so is random.

This is very simple and it logically proves that your version of 'freedom' is false.

[torridon]

But you still need some way of consciously initiating the calculation.

No, all actions are initiated by preconscious mind, your conscious mind only gets to know about it slightly later.  Your conscious mind is a memory of the action just initiated.  If it worked how you seem to think, you wouldn't last as a batsman, our preconscious mind is always racing ahead, that is what the 'pre-' means; conscious mind is always playing catchup.

[Sebastian Toe]

Just do it - you know it works.  You have control.

How does it work?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So we are, but Alan thinks he already knows enough to exclude neural activity being sufficient - so perhaps you need to address your remarks to him.

or Dennett more likely Ha Ha Ha.

[Sebastian Toe]

or Dennett more likely Ha Ha Ha.

As Dennett is not here concentrate on Alan for now.

[Stranger]

or Dennett more likely Ha Ha Ha.

No, it's Alan that is claiming certainty.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As Dennett is not here..............

No he isn't but his little wizards and gargoyles are.

[Sebastian Toe]

No he isn't but his little wizards and gargoyles are.

...as is Alan, so why not address him directly?