Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

As I have previously said, we do not choose beliefs, we discern them.  I can't choose to stop believing what I know to be true - it is not a personal preference.

Clear evidence that you are a deterministic system, then.  If you were not deterministic, you would have the freedom to choose your beliefs.

[Alan Burns]

and that 'how, when and where' is itself a matter of desire; we choose the option for 'how, when and where' that most appeals and we have no control over how much something appeals to us.  There is no escaping this logic Alan.

But our gift of free will gives us the power to override what most appeals to us if we so wish.  We all have consciously driven control over much of what we do - we are not automated machines with no will of our own.

[torridon]

The reason for my actions starts and ends in my human will

That would be impossible. Our desires must form for a reason otherwise they would be random phenomena, and therefore not desires.  Reasons must always be in the past - information cannot travel faster than light - so the formation of a desire is consequential to the reason that triggers it.

[BeRational]

As I have previously said, we do not choose beliefs, we discern them.  I can't choose to stop believing what I know to be true - it is not a personal preference.

And your beliefs inform your actions.

So you are not free to do anything that you want. At any point in time any choice you make is informed by your wants, and your already established beliefs.

This is what people keep telling you!

[Gordon]

But our gift of free will gives us the power to override what most appeals to us if we so wish.

By something that must have had greater appeal, whatever the basis for that appeal was.

We all have consciously driven control over much of what we do - we are not automated machines with no will of our own.

Nobody said we were.

[Alan Burns]

Clear evidence that you are a deterministic system, then.  If you were not deterministic, you would have the freedom to choose your beliefs.

We do not have freedom to choose the truth - we can only discern it.  The truth is out there to be discovered, not chosen.

The fact that we have the conscious ability to discern truth does not take away our freedom to choose what we say or do.

[Stranger]

The reason for my actions starts and ends in my human will

That doesn't make any sense at all - it's literally meaningless. Either you will things for reasons or for no reason (or a combination).

But our gift of free will gives us the power to override what most appeals to us if we so wish.

On one level, of course but the wish to override something that appeals to us must be because there are reasons that actually make overriding it more appealing to us.

You can't escape the infinite regress. Your version of 'freedom' is nonsense.

We all have consciously driven control over much of what we do - we are not automated machines with no will of our own.

Yes - but that wouldn't be true if your version of freedom was true - we'd either never make any choices (because you've excluded all the things that can decide matters) or we'd be acting randomly.

[BeRational]

We do not have freedom to choose the truth - we can only discern it.  The truth is out there to be discovered, not chosen.

The fact that we have the conscious ability to discern truth does not take away our freedom to choose what we say or do.

But you cannot be certain you have the truth.

You cannot demonstrate what you believe is true, so I think you are unjustified in thinking that it is true.

To me, your position looks illogical and lacks reason, and open mindedness.

[torridon]

But our gift of free will gives us the power to override what most appeals to us if we so wish.  We all have consciously driven control over much of what we do - we are not automated machines with no will of our own.

No, the action we take at any moment is always the action that appeals most to us in the moment. This is how minds work.  You just aren't thinking this through.  If you 'override' what seems most appealing with another option, it just means that the 'other option' was in fact the most appealing option, even if you didn't really 'know' it

[Stranger]

The fact that we have the conscious ability to discern truth does not take away our freedom to choose what we say or do.

Yes but you wouldn't be able to choose what to do and say unless you are acting entirely due to internal (who you are) and external (the circumstances) reasons. Unless they decide the matter, you (the person you are) isn't free to choose - something else must have made the choice.

[Alan Burns]

That would be impossible. Our desires must form for a reason otherwise they would be random phenomena, and therefore not desires.  Reasons must always be in the past - information cannot travel faster than light - so the formation of a desire is consequential to the reason that triggers it.

In a physically determined world, the only reasons for things are the results of previous physical reactions.

But in our conscious awareness, reasons become a feature within our present state of conscious awareness which comprise conscious thoughts rather than physical reactions.

Physical reasons may exist in the past, but human will is invoked from the present state of mind - it is not dictated by the past.  If it was dictated by the past it would just be uncontrollable reaction.

[BeRational]

In a physically determined world, the only reasons for things are the results of previous physical reactions.

But in our conscious awareness, reasons become a feature within our present state of conscious awareness which comprise conscious thoughts rather than physical reactions.

Physical reasons may exist in the past, but human will is invoked from the present state of mind - it is not dictated by the past.  If it was dictated by the past it would just be uncontrollable reaction.

You just keep repeating the same thing over and over, like you have no control over what to post.

[torridon]

In a physically determined world, the only reasons for things are the results of previous physical reactions.

But in our conscious awareness, reasons become a feature within our present state of conscious awareness which comprise conscious thoughts rather than physical reactions.

Physical reasons may exist in the past, but human will is invoked from the present state of mind - it is not dictated by the past.  If it was dictated by the past it would just be uncontrollable reaction.

Our present state of mind is always a consequence of prior states of mind plus external change.  you can easily demonstrate the truth of this - try saying boo to a goose, you will find its state of mind has altered, it has become fearful as a consequence.  We do not, cannot, choose our state of mind, it is always consequential to what has happened before.  If we could choose our state of mind, then we surely would just choose to be happy all the time.  Doesn't work like that, our state of mind is always consequential.

[Stranger]

But in our conscious awareness, reasons become a feature within our present state of conscious awareness which comprise conscious
thoughts rather than physical reactions.

Physical has nothing to do with it. You are again trying to avoid the logic with meaningless waffle.

If "reasons become a feature within our present state of conscious awareness" then they either do so because of previously existing reasons ("predetermined"), which may for the sake of argument also "comprise conscious thoughts rather than physical reactions" or due to no reason (random).

Making them "comprise conscious thoughts rather than physical reactions" doesn't change that logic.

[Alan Burns]

That doesn't make any sense at all - it's literally meaningless. Either you will things for reasons or for no reason (or a combination).

You seem unable to grasp the concept that human will is the definitive reason for our chosen actions.  It is not pre defined by past events, but consciously invoked because it is what we have deliberately chosen to do.

[Alan Burns]

You just keep repeating the same thing over and over, like you have no control over what to post.

Of course I have control, which is why I deliberately choose to witness to what I believe to be the truth.

[BeRational]

Of course I have control, which is why I deliberately choose to witness to what I believe to be the truth.

It's just repetition, with no demonstration of truth.

You keep asserting your unreasoned beliefs as if they are true.

As far as I am aware, they are not true.

Your beliefs fly in the face of the evidence.

[Stranger]

You seem unable to grasp the concept that human will is the definitive reason for our chosen actions.  It is not pre defined by past events, but consciously invoked because it is what we have deliberately chosen to do.

And you seem unable to grasp the simple logic of the situation. Human will and our deliberate choices are the output of a decision making process - it can't be its own reason. What we end up choosing is due to pre-existing reasons or is, to some extent, random.

Labelling the choice making process "human will" or "conscious choice" or any of your other stock phrases doesn't change the logic.

[Alan Burns]

Our present state of mind is always a consequence of prior states of mind plus external change.  you can easily demonstrate the truth of this - try saying boo to a goose, you will find its state of mind has altered, it has become fearful as a consequence.  We do not, cannot, choose our state of mind, it is always consequential to what has happened before.  If we could choose our state of mind, then we surely would just choose to be happy all the time.  Doesn't work like that, our state of mind is always consequential.

Our state of mind is certainly influenced by the consequences to past events, but surely you must see that our state of mind is not entirely dictated by past events.  We do have the freedom to choose how to cope with consequences - they do not dictate our actions.

[Stranger]

Your beliefs fly in the face of the evidence.

And perhaps more importantly, logic. Alan's view of freedom is logically impossible. We can be 100% sure he is wrong about it. It's not impossible his god exists and it's not impossible we have souls but it is impossible we have the kind of freedom he thinks we do because it is self-contradictory.

[Alan Burns]

And you seem unable to grasp the simple logic of the situation. Human will and our deliberate choices are the output of a decision making process - it can't be its own reason.

So when you make a deliberate choice - what is the ultimate cause of your deliberation?

In your scenario, there will just be an infinite regression of reasons entirely dictated by the past, so it can't possibly be labelled as a deliberate choice - just a reaction.

[torridon]

Our state of mind is certainly influenced by the consequences to past events, but surely you must see that our state of mind is not entirely dictated by past events.  We do have the freedom to choose how to cope with consequences - they do not dictate our actions.

The way we cope with consequences is going to be, by definition, the way of coping that appeals, or suits, best in the context of our current state of mind.

This is how minds work, and it is entirely logical. If it were any other way, we would be illogical beings.

[Enki]

You seem unable to grasp the concept that human will is the definitive reason for our chosen actions.  It is not pre defined by past events, but consciously invoked because it is what we have deliberately chosen to do.

How does it make its decisions?

How does it link to the physical reactions which result in such actions?  After all you have stated 'that in a physically determined world the only reason for things are the results of previous physical reactions'. So, if the human will is not part of this physical world, then, according to you it can't be a reason for physical reactions. If, on the other hand, you see the human will as part of this physical world, then how does it reach its decisions unless it is a result of previous physical reactions, as you have so stated?

[Sebastian Toe]

As I have previously said, we do not choose beliefs, we discern them.  I can't choose to stop believing what I know to be true - it is not a personal preference.

Another person might "know to be true" the opposite of what you "know to be true".
One of you will be incorrect.

[Alan Burns]

How does it make its decisions?

How does it link to the physical reactions which result in such actions?  After all you have stated 'that in a physically determined world the only reason for things are the results of previous physical reactions'. So, if the human will is not part of this physical world, then, according to you it can't be a reason for physical reactions. If, on the other hand, you see the human will as part of this physical world, then how does it reach its decisions unless it is a result of previous physical reactions, as you have so stated?

My God given gift of free will enables me to deliberately invoke my choices through physical interaction with my brain.  Our brain and body comprise an amazing biological machine, and my soul is the driver.