Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

Another person might "know to be true" the opposite of what you "know to be true".
One of you will be incorrect.

That does not take away the possibility that one of us is correct.  There is only one truth, but there are many millions of people trying to discern it.  Many will be incorrect.

[Stranger]

So when you make a deliberate choice - what is the ultimate cause of your deliberation?

In your scenario, there will just be an infinite regression of reasons entirely dictated by the past, so it can't possibly be labelled as a deliberate choice - just a reaction.

I'll take this to mean that you have no answer to what I said. I've answered these points multiple times and the fact you don't like and will not accept them doesn't mean that your logically impossible scenario is true.

Conscious will cannot be its own reason - we make choices because of who we are and what is happening at the time - nothing else makes sense. You are a part of reality (notice I didn't assume the physical universe) and it can do as it wishes but it can't do the impossible and do things that aren't for existing reasons and aren't random.

[Alan Burns]

Conscious will cannot be its own reason -

Why?

Do you profess to know what determines conscious will and how it works?

[Enki]

My God given gift of free will enables me to deliberately invoke my choices through physical interaction with my brain.  Our brain and body comprise an amazing biological machine, and my soul is the driver.

None of that provides any explanation to my question at all, which was how does it make its decisions and how does it then link to the physical? How does it, for instance, physically interact with the brain, and how does the brain interact with it?

You seem very keen to challenge others on their interpretations of what free will means, insisting that physical events can only be the result of physical cause and effect, but when I ask how the non physical links to the physical, you don't seem to be able to come up with any solution. Instead you simply state meaningless assertions which essentially contradict what you have previously said.

[Alan Burns]

None of that provides any explanation to my question at all, which was how does it make its decisions and how does it then link to the physical? How does it, for instance, physically interact with the brain, and how does the brain interact with it?

There is something which consciously perceives the information in millions of brain cells.
It does not just react to information - it perceives it.
This single entity of perception is you.
And this entity of perception, which is you, has the ability to consciously interact, not just react, with the information it perceives in order to to invoke its conscious will.
This is life as we know it.

[Gordon]

There is something which consciously perceives the information in millions of brain cells.
It does not just react to information - it perceives it.
This single entity of perception is you.
And this entity of perception, which is you, has the ability to consciously interact, not just react, with the information it perceives in order to to invoke its conscious will.
This is life as we know it.

'You' are your brain, Alan: no other ingredients are required.

[Stranger]

Conscious will cannot be its own reason -

Why?

Because (as I explained in the rest of the post and in numerous others) it doesn't make any effin sense. If you will something just because you will it, then it's for no other reason and is therefore random.

Do you profess to know what determines conscious will and how it works?

No, but I do know that it can't do things for no reason without them being random because that's what random means.

[torridon]

There is something which consciously perceives the information in millions of brain cells.
It does not just react to information - it perceives it.
This single entity of perception is you.
And this entity of perception, which is you, has the ability to consciously interact, not just react, with the information it perceives in order to to invoke its conscious will.
This is life as we know it.

That's how it seems, and for most people, for most of the time, that is good enough. Some of us are interested in the nature of that single entity of perception and are not satisfied with simplistic answers that in fact answer nothing when you think about it.  Magic never answers anything, it merely obscures enquiry with a trivial answer. Seeing that entity of perception as a person, or a mind is truer to the principals of evidence and reason. It provides explanations for why we are the way we are and why people make the choices they make. Supernatural souls are true to nothing bar religious beliefs and traditional beliefs.

[Stranger]

There is something which consciously perceives the information in millions of brain cells.
It does not just react to information - it perceives it.
This single entity of perception is you.
And this entity of perception, which is you, has the ability to consciously interact, not just react, with the information it perceives in order to to invoke its conscious will.

Which is just the same old self-contradiction buried in meaningless mumbo jumbo.

This is life as we know it.

No, it most definitely isn't.

[Nearly Sane]

That's how it seems, and for most people, for most of the time, that is good enough. Some of us are interested in the nature of that single entity of perception and are not satisfied with simplistic answers that in fact answer nothing when you think about it.  Magic never answers anything, it merely obscures enquiry with a trivial answer. Seeing that entity of perception as a person, or a mind is truer to the principals of evidence and reason. It provides explanations for why we are the way we are and why people make the choices they make. Supernatural souls are true to nothing bar religious beliefs and traditional beliefs.

It isn't how it seems to me. I don't feel a single entity. Rather a myriad of thoughts.

[Enki]

There is something which consciously perceives the information in millions of brain cells.
It does not just react to information - it perceives it.
This single entity of perception is you.
And this entity of perception, which is you, has the ability to consciously interact, not just react, with the information it perceives in order to to invoke its conscious will.
This is life as we know it.

All you have done is simply make assertions.

Questions:

1) Is this 'entity of perception' which is 'me' physical or non physical?

2) How does it interact or even react with information from a physical source unless it is physical?

3)What process does the word 'ability' refer to?

4)How does it invoke its conscious will?

5) Is this 'conscious will' physical or non physical?

6) How does it interact or even react with information from a physical source unless it is physical?

Finally, I beg to differ. This is not 'life as I know it'. You presume too much.

[ippy]

There is something which consciously perceives the information in millions of brain cells.
It does not just react to information - it perceives it.
This single entity of perception is you.
And this entity of perception, which is you, has the ability to consciously interact, not just react, with the information it perceives in order to to invoke its conscious will.
This is life as we know it.

I was born in 1942 right in the middle of WW2 and in a part of my earlier years we had some of the books that when looking back some of them had to be pre war they had titles like Bumper Fun Book for Boys etc, and invariably they had pictures of three or four men sitting at various desks jambed up together doing various office jobs all inside of this cut away picture of a persons head.

These pictures were a part of describing how our bodies work the above was obviously taking the part of representing the how the brain works controlling movement etc., I was thinking when I read some of the stuff you insist on coming out with I don't remember seeing a picture of anyone sitting at a desk with something like a white sheet over their head with the usual pair of cut away eye holes in these books, any one of them, I'll take a bet you can't explain that one away Alan?

Commiserations Alan, ippy.

[Sebastian Toe]

That does not take away the possibility that one of us is correct.  There is only one truth, but there are many millions of people trying to discern it.  Many will be incorrect.

That does not take away the fact that you could be the one that is incorrect.

[Alan Burns]

Why?


Because (as I explained in the rest of the post and in numerous others) it doesn't make any effin sense. If you will something just because you will it, then it's for no other reason and is therefore random.

No, but I do know that it can't do things for no reason without them being random because that's what random means.

The reason is simply human will.
For will to exist, it must be able to enact the content of that will.
If what we do is completely defined by past events and circumstances, there can be no such thing as human will.
Your attempted reasoning effectively removes the concept of will, because if our will is dictated by something other than itself, it is not will - just reaction.

[BeRational]

That does not take away the possibility that one of us is correct.  There is only one truth, but there are many millions of people trying to discern it.  Many will be incorrect.

You could both be wrong.

Are you open to the possibility that you are wrong about this?

[Sebastian Toe]

The reason is simply human will.
For will to exist, it must be able to enact the content of that will.

Where does the content of the will exist?
How is it accessed?

[Alan Burns]

I was born in 1942 right in the middle of WW2 and in a part of my earlier years we had some of the books that when looking back some of them had to be pre war they had titles like Bumper Fun Book for Boys etc, and invariably they had pictures of three or four men sitting at various desks jambed up together doing various office jobs all inside of this cut away picture of a persons head.

These pictures were a part of describing how our bodies work the above was obviously taking the part of representing the how the brain works controlling movement etc., I was thinking when I read some of the stuff you insist on coming out with I don't remember seeing a picture of anyone sitting at a desk with something like a white sheet over their head with the usual pair of cut away eye holes in these books, any one of them, I'll take a bet you can't explain that one away Alan?

My perception of what you describe depicts some form of consciously driven control going on within the person's brain, which completely vindicates what I have been saying in recent posts that each person has the God given freedom to consciously control what they do.

[torridon]

It isn't how it seems to me. I don't feel a single entity. Rather a myriad of thoughts.

I have myriad thoughts, but only thinking one of them (consciously) at a time, only acting on one intention at a time. So I feel like a single being through which pass many experiences over time.  Mind you, my partner always laughs at me for being a bloke, unable to multitask like her.  Some truth in that I think.

[torridon]

The reason is simply human will.
For will to exist, it must be able to enact the content of that will.
If what we do is completely defined by past events and circumstances, there can be no such thing as human will.
Your attempted reasoning effectively removes the concept of will, because if our will is dictated by something other than itself, it is not will - just reaction.

That's circular, you are defining will as the ability to enact will.

Much simpler, is to say that will is desire/intention, and these things arise in us as a consequence of something.

[Nearly Sane]

I have myriad thoughts, but only thinking one of them (consciously) at a time, only acting on one intention at a time. So I feel like a single being through which pass many experiences over time.  Mind you, my partner always laughs at me for being a bloke, unable to multitask like her.  Some truth in that I think.

It's not like it feels like in here. Myriads of conscious thoughts.

[Alan Burns]

That's how it seems, and for most people, for most of the time, that is good enough. Some of us are interested in the nature of that single entity of perception and are not satisfied with simplistic answers that in fact answer nothing when you think about it.  Magic never answers anything, it merely obscures enquiry with a trivial answer. Seeing that entity of perception as a person, or a mind is truer to the principals of evidence and reason. It provides explanations for why we are the way we are and why people make the choices they make. Supernatural souls are true to nothing bar religious beliefs and traditional beliefs.

The detailed explanations you have given on this thread about the physical workings of human brain may well be applicable to animals, who's behaviour can easily be categorised under the headings of either instinct or learnt behaviour.  But human behaviour is categorically different.

From about 30,000 BC we have discovered the existence of cave paintings, mainly depicting animals.  There has been much speculation about the reasons and meanings behind these paintings, but there are no substantial conclusions on this.  However, their existence does prove two undeniable facts:

1 - The existence of these paintings proves that the humans who made these paintings were able to consciously perceive what was physically detected by their sensory organs.

2 - They had the consciously driven freedom physically record what they had seen.

This sets humans distinctly apart from other animals as there is no known evidence that animals have ever even attempted to physically depict what they have previously seen in some alternative media.  It was the start of mankind's unique creative abilities which has culminated in our vast treasures of artistic creativity.  A creativity which is driven by something other than the aimless, uncontrollable material reactions in the physically pre determined scenario.

[Stranger]

Because (as I explained in the rest of the post and in numerous others) it doesn't make any effin sense. If you will something just because you will it, then it's for no other reason and is therefore random.

No, but I do know that it can't do things for no reason without them being random because that's what random means.

The reason is simply human will.

This is getting sillier and sillier. The reason for you making a choice cannot be that you made the choice. That's self-referential - how did you make a choice in order for it to be the reason for you making the choice?

Just think about it. It's obvious just from our experience that we don't magic choices out of nothingness and even if we could, they wouldn't be our choices. Our choices need to be because of reasons, including who we are.

If what we do is completely defined by past events and circumstances, there can be no such thing as human will.

Nonsense - there can be no freedom for the part of reality that is me unless that part of reality dictates what choices I make. You keep on trying to exclude everything from deciding the matter and end up with silly circular nonsense or a direct contradiction.

I am a part of reality (note I'm not assuming the physical world), I can't not be without not existing at all.

Your attempted reasoning effectively removes the concept of will, because if our will is dictated by something other than itself, it is not will - just reaction.

I'm not suggesting something else, I'm just pointing out that our will is a part of reality and does things because of the reasons (internal or external) that exist at the moments it makes choices.

You are trying to externalise every reason for deciding the matter and then refusing to accept that when there are no reasons left, there can only be randomness.

[Stranger]

A creativity which is driven by something other than the aimless, uncontrollable material reactions in the physically pre determined scenario.

Prejudicial language and irrelevances removed - what remains is just another baseless assertion.   

[ippy]

My perception of what you describe depicts some form of consciously driven control going on within the person's brain, which completely vindicates what I have been saying in recent posts that each person has the God given freedom to consciously control what they do.

Straight out of an early forties 'Bumper Fun for Boy's' book.

Commiserations Alan, ippy

[Alan Burns]

The reason is simply human will.


This is getting sillier and sillier. The reason for you making a choice cannot be that you made the choice. That's self-referential - how did you make a choice in order for it to be the reason for you making the choice?

Just think about it. It's obvious just from our experience that we don't magic choices out of nothingness and even if we could, they wouldn't be our choices. Our choices need to be because of reasons, including who we are.

Nonsense - there can be no freedom for the part of reality that is me unless that part of reality dictates what choices I make. You keep on trying to exclude everything from deciding the matter and end up with silly circular nonsense or a direct contradiction.

I am a part of reality (note I'm not assuming the physical world), I can't not be without not existing at all.

I'm not suggesting something else, I'm just pointing out that our will is a part of reality and does things because of the reasons (internal or external) that exist at the moments it makes choices.

You are trying to externalise every reason for deciding the matter and then refusing to accept that when there are no reasons left, there can only be randomness.

But in all this you are in denial what is central to you, what defines you.  You are more than just pre defined reasons.  You are the reason.  You are in control of yourself.  This is God's amazing gift which makes each one of us unique individuals with the power to choose our own destiny in this world, and the next.