Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3863836 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30975 on: August 20, 2018, 01:49:17 PM »
Why would god want to triumph over evil that he created ?
God did not create evil.
He created entities of awareness - each with their own freewill.
We are all free to choose between good and evil, and those who choose evil take responsibility for it - not God.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30976 on: August 20, 2018, 02:00:52 PM »
God did not create evil.
He created entities of awareness - each with their own freewill.
We are all free to choose between good and evil, and those who choose evil take responsibility for it - not God.

But he must have known what choices would be made, and how it would all turn out?

Or does he not know what will happen?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 02:29:48 PM by BeRational »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30977 on: August 20, 2018, 02:09:02 PM »
God did not create evil.
He created entities of awareness - each with their own freewill.
We are all free to choose between good and evil, and those who choose evil take responsibility for it - not God.
But he still ordered the slaughter and rape of the Midianite children, and you worship that.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30978 on: August 20, 2018, 02:09:19 PM »
enki,

The experiences are real...the argument is whether they are merely brain generated or is there something beyond that?

This is the old 'Brain God' argument!   The brain does everything....no other reason required at all! 

..


Brains synthesise experience.  That is what brains do.  All experience is synthesised by brains seeded by various inputs.  Brains synthesise visual experience by processing inputs from optical nerves in conjunction with aspects of memory.  Brains synthesise pain by processing inputs from the central nervous system.   If something is seeing or hearing (for example) that indicates a brain functioning; the inputs are not always simply collected from organs at the moment of experience however; a schizophrenic hearing deafening voices in his head is having auditory experience but there is no immediate external input triggering it, rather it is cycles of memory and emotion within the brain causing that experience in the moment.  Imagined experience is another form of experience, as is dreams, all without immediate external input.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30979 on: August 20, 2018, 02:14:59 PM »
God did not create evil.
He created entities of awareness - each with their own freewill.
We are all free to choose between good and evil, and those who choose evil take responsibility for it - not God.

Humans are not capable of creating the Devil, but God is, apparently.  God admits to being the source of Evil directly in his own words in Isaiah. 

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30980 on: August 20, 2018, 03:09:10 PM »
But he still ordered the slaughter and rape of the Midianite children, and you worship that.
There are other interpretations about this:
 Weren't the virgin women raped?

There are two parts to this objection: did God instruct or permit the soldiers to rape the women, and did the soldiers actually rape them?

It's clear that God didn't intend for the soldiers to rape the women, but rather to take them captive. The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Dt 22:25-27). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

It's theoretically possible that some of the soldiers raped the women, but given the circumstances it seems very unlikely. The soldiers would have known that rape was a violation of both the law and the instruction to purify themselves, as shown above; they had also seen God punish such violations with death during their travels in the desert. In fact, they had recently experienced a plague and executions resulting from their relations with Midianite women (25:1-9), as Moses reminded them. At that time, all those who had sexual relations with the Midianites were killed. It's highly implausible that the soldiers would have wanted to have anything to do with the Midianite women given this context.

So what did happen to the women (and children)? God gave the Israelites permission to marry women they took captive, but they were to treat their wives with respect: the women were to have time to mourn their families first, and were not to be mistreated (Dt 21:10-14). Those who didn't marry would have become servants, but there were rules against mistreating them as well (Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16). See the article on slavery laws for more on the treatment of female slaves.

www.rationalchristianity.net/numbers31.html
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 03:18:48 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30981 on: August 20, 2018, 03:19:21 PM »
There are other interpretations about this:
 Weren't the virgin women raped?

There are two parts to this objection: did God instruct or permit the soldiers to rape the women, and did the soldiers actually rape them?

It's clear that God didn't intend for the soldiers to rape the women, but rather to take them captive. The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Dt 22:25-27). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

It's theoretically possible that some of the soldiers raped the women, but given the circumstances it seems very unlikely. The soldiers would have known that rape was a violation of both the law and the instruction to purify themselves, as shown above; they had also seen God punish such violations with death during their travels in the desert. In fact, they had recently experienced a plague and executions resulting from their relations with Midianite women (25:1-9), as Moses reminded them. At that time, all those who had sexual relations with the Midianites were killed. It's highly implausible that the soldiers would have wanted to have anything to do with the Midianite women given this context.

So what did happen to the women (and children)? God gave the Israelites permission to marry women they took captive, but they were to treat their wives with respect: the women were to have time to mourn their families first, and were not to be mistreated (Dt 21:10-14). Those who didn't marry would have become servants, but there were rules against mistreating them as well (Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16). See the article on slavery laws for more on the treatment of female slaves.




You see this post hoc rationalisation as good?

Really?

You are now talking about slavery and rape and you seem not appalled by it, because you have to conclude it was a good thing, as your god was behind it.

Does this not give you cause to question the motives of a god like this if it existed.

I am more moral than your god (so are you too I suspect)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 03:41:14 PM by BeRational »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30982 on: August 20, 2018, 03:34:37 PM »
There are other interpretations about this:
 Weren't the virgin women raped?

There are two parts to this objection: did God instruct or permit the soldiers to rape the women, and did the soldiers actually rape them?

It's clear that God didn't intend for the soldiers to rape the women, but rather to take them captive. The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Dt 22:25-27). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

It's theoretically possible that some of the soldiers raped the women, but given the circumstances it seems very unlikely. The soldiers would have known that rape was a violation of both the law and the instruction to purify themselves, as shown above; they had also seen God punish such violations with death during their travels in the desert. In fact, they had recently experienced a plague and executions resulting from their relations with Midianite women (25:1-9), as Moses reminded them. At that time, all those who had sexual relations with the Midianites were killed. It's highly implausible that the soldiers would have wanted to have anything to do with the Midianite women given this context.

So what did happen to the women (and children)? God gave the Israelites permission to marry women they took captive, but they were to treat their wives with respect: the women were to have time to mourn their families first, and were not to be mistreated (Dt 21:10-14). Those who didn't marry would have become servants, but there were rules against mistreating them as well (Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16). See the article on slavery laws for more on the treatment of female slaves.

www.rationalchristianity.net/numbers31.html

How long do you give a women whose two year old male child you've just killed to mourn before she feels like being married or enslaved?

And that treatment of slaves it refers to allows you to beat them as long as they don't die in two days. If they die on the third, that's fine. You worship a thug. 

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30983 on: August 20, 2018, 04:27:00 PM »
How long do you give a women whose two year old male child you've just killed to mourn before she feels like being married or enslaved?

And that treatment of slaves it refers to allows you to beat them as long as they don't die in two days. If they die on the third, that's fine. You worship a thug.
The OT has many controversial passages, but the message of the NT gives far more clarity, and reinforces basic moral behaviour, in addition to commanding us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us.

And you should not lose sight of the fact that our conscience, our perception of what is right and wrong, and perception of the difference between good and evil are themselves a God given gift which is an essential part of our humanity.

As our increasingly secular society moves away from God, the distinctions between what is right and wrong become more blurred, leading to more opportunity for evil to creep in without us realising - until it is too late.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 04:32:46 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30984 on: August 20, 2018, 04:30:39 PM »
The OT has many controversial passages, but the message of the NT gives far more clarity, and reinforces basic moral behaviour, in addition to commanding us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us.

And you should not lose sight of the fact that our conscience, our perception of what is right and wrong, and perception of the difference between good and evil are themselves a God given gift which is an essential part of our humanity.
So when the Bible gives rules about eating slaves you think it is wrong? And you done find oneness with the writer?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30985 on: August 20, 2018, 04:34:18 PM »
So when the Bible gives rules about eating slaves you think it is wrong? And you done find oneness with the writer?
I suggest you read and digest the message of the New Testament.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30986 on: August 20, 2018, 04:41:58 PM »
There are other interpretations about this:
 Weren't the virgin women raped?

There are two parts to this objection: did God instruct or permit the soldiers to rape the women, and did the soldiers actually rape them?

It's clear that God didn't intend for the soldiers to rape the women, but rather to take them captive. The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Dt 22:25-27). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

It's theoretically possible that some of the soldiers raped the women, but given the circumstances it seems very unlikely. The soldiers would have known that rape was a violation of both the law and the instruction to purify themselves, as shown above; they had also seen God punish such violations with death during their travels in the desert. In fact, they had recently experienced a plague and executions resulting from their relations with Midianite women (25:1-9), as Moses reminded them. At that time, all those who had sexual relations with the Midianites were killed. It's highly implausible that the soldiers would have wanted to have anything to do with the Midianite women given this context.

So what did happen to the women (and children)? God gave the Israelites permission to marry women they took captive, but they were to treat their wives with respect: the women were to have time to mourn their families first, and were not to be mistreated (Dt 21:10-14). Those who didn't marry would have become servants, but there were rules against mistreating them as well (Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16). See the article on slavery laws for more on the treatment of female slaves.

www.rationalchristianity.net/numbers31.html


A particularly vile and mealy-mouthed post hoc rationalisation, which adds insult to injury by actually misrepresenting what the text actually says. So concerned is the above biblical apologist about exonerating the Israelites from rape, it omits to point out that Moses ordered the adult women to be murdered. It is possible that there were a few adult females who were unmarried virgins, but that is unlikely.
As for the fate of the young girl virgins - I'm sure they were overjoyed at possibly avoiding rape once they'd been so gratified to see their fathers, mothers and brothers murdered.
Does the text relate to a real historical event, instigated by Moses on the basis of what he thought was a command from God? Most likely not, since Moses probably didn't exist and this section of the narrative in Numbers is hopelessly confused as to the identity of the Midianites and the Moabites, who are sometimes referred to as the same people and sometimes different peoples.
That similar things did happen in ancient history is almost certainly true, and maybe the Hebrews of this time had a slightly advanced morality compared to other tribes around. But the fact that the text appears to applaud the wholesale murder of men, women, and boys does little to engender respect for the tribal Yahweh in whose name these horrors are committed.
Yahweh does improve in his behaviour and precepts later on in the Bible. All these images of God are filtered through the minds of the prophets writing about him. If you want to claim Numbers 31 as a legitimate portrayal of the righteous actions of the god whom you worship, that's your affair.
You don't have to be a Marcionite to write off texts like these. I wouldn't castigate you for a bit of cherry-picking (you might prefer Micah or deutero-Isaiah and have a better case). But if you want to justify the whole bloody text, you've got all your work cut out.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 04:44:13 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Le Bon David

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30987 on: August 20, 2018, 04:47:20 PM »
I suggest you read and digest the message of the New Testament.
Why didn't you answer the questions? You know the following ones?


So when the Bible gives rules about beating slaves you think it is wrong? And did  you  find oneness with the writer?


And I will point out that this arose because you cited your oneness with the author of Psalms as some meaningful fact. If you don't have the same with the author of Numbers as regards the Midianites, or Exodus as regards beating slaves, then it would make your point specious as you would be cherry picking.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30988 on: August 20, 2018, 04:51:49 PM »
A particularly vile and mealy-mouthed post hoc rationalisation, which adds insult to injury by actually misrepresenting what the text actually says. So concerned is the above biblical apologist about exonerating the Israelites from rape, it omits to point out that Moses ordered the adult women to be murdered. It is possible that there were a few adult females who were unmarried virgins, but that is unlikely.B

.....

But if you want to justify the whole bloody text, you've got all your work cut out.
The problem is Alan cited Morningstar he found resonant in Psalms to illustrate some universality in approach. I too have no real problem if he wants to disown the thug portrayed in Numbers, but it means he then must drop the universality point.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30989 on: August 20, 2018, 04:52:25 PM »
Why didn't you answer the questions? You know the following ones?


So when the Bible gives rules about beating slaves you think it is wrong? And you done find oneness with the writer?


And I will point out that this arose because you cited your oneness with the author of Psalms as some meaningful fact. If you don't have the same with the author of Numbers as regards the Midianites, or Exodus as regards beating slaves, then it would make your point specious as you would be cherry picking.

Yes, our Alan does seem to be trying to have it both ways. I don't mind cherry-picking the Bible if there's some rigorous thinking behind accepting one text over another, but to start making mealy-mouthed justifications for certain appalling texts, and then beat a retreat by saying "Oh well, the New Testament is what really matters" is just pathetic.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30990 on: August 20, 2018, 04:52:53 PM »
The problem is Alan cited meanings that he found resonant in Psalms to illustrate some universality in approach. I too have no real problem if he wants to disown the thug portrayed in Numbers, but it means he then must drop the universality point.

Exactly so.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 04:56:13 PM by Nearly Sane »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30991 on: August 20, 2018, 04:58:56 PM »
Yes, our Alan does seem to be trying to have it both ways. I don't mind cherry-picking the Bible if there's some rigorous thinking behind accepting one text over another, but to start making mealy-mouthed justifications for certain appalling texts, and then beat a retreat by saying "Oh well, the New Testament is what really matters" is just pathetic.
And that doesn't even take into account that he participates in a church that has systematically covered up child abuse.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 05:05:48 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30992 on: August 20, 2018, 05:05:10 PM »
Exactly so.
The end of the apologist note he quoted is really quite chilling, where it asks one to read a further piece about women weren't badly treated as slaves, without thinking that having them as slaves should be a big ducking no in the first place.

The thug god that Alan worships has time to say no coveting of neighbour's added in banner headlines, but not only can't be arsed about saying no slavery, but gives instructions on how hard you can best them.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30993 on: August 20, 2018, 07:10:58 PM »
The OT has many controversial passages, but the message of the NT gives far more clarity, and reinforces basic moral behaviour, in addition to commanding us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us.
I don't find that particularly moral.

Quote
And you should not lose sight of the fact that our conscience, our perception of what is right and wrong, and perception of the difference between good and evil are themselves a God given gift which is an essential part of our humanity.
Which is bald assertion, of course.

Quote
As our increasingly secular society moves away from God, the distinctions between what is right and wrong become more blurred, leading to more opportunity for evil to creep in without us realising - until it is too late.
As our increasingly non-religious society (secular means something else) moves away from God we seem to be fine-tuning our moral judgements on the whole for the betterment of all. It's only since we've thankfully abandoned widespread religious adherence that we've taken the rights of minorities seriously - non-discrimination laws and more recently marriage equality for gay couples - and taken a woman's right to control her own fertility seriously. Both of these would have been unthinkable in - for example - the Republic of Ireland just a few decades ago, but look where they stand today: at least in the cities and major towns a forward-thinking, progressive, modern liberal nation that won't be dictated to any more by the world's largest paedophile ring. In Britain we didn't have the same shackles to cast off - we outgrew that nonsense long ago - but we're broadly in the same place. Looks to me that we're doing all right over all. We're going in the right direction - which is always as far away from religion as possible. I salute that and applaud it.

If you want a society thoroughly and entirely immersed in 'God' there are plenty of places I can suggest down the Middle East way that you can check out.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 07:13:06 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30994 on: August 20, 2018, 07:22:29 PM »
I don't find that particularly moral.
Which is bald assertion, of course.
As our increasingly non-religious society (secular means something else) moves away from God we seem to be fine-tuning our moral judgements on the whole for the betterment of all. It's only since we've thankfully abandoned widespread religious adherence that we've taken the rights of minorities seriously - non-discrimination laws and more recently marriage equality for gay couples - and taken a woman's right to control her own fertility seriously. Both of these would have been unthinkable in - for example - the Republic of Ireland just a few decades ago, but look where they stand today: at least in the cities and major towns a forward-thinking, progressive, modern liberal nation that won't be dictated to any more by the world's largest paedophile ring. In Britain we didn't have the same shackles to cast off - we outgrew that nonsense long ago - but we're broadly in the same place. Looks to me that we're doing all right over all. We're going in the right direction - which is always as far away from religion as possible. I salute that and applaud it.

If you want a society thoroughly and entirely immersed in 'God' there are plenty of places I can suggest down the Middle East way that you can check out.
Yes everythings now going Dandy, with Modern slavery, racism etc, in the ascendency, and for the first time we can look forward to real food shortages and medicine embargos, while the nations wealth gets concentrated intothe hands of the few.


And the beauty is non religion society and it's shite ridden apologists can and does take credit for the good things but washes it's hands of the bad stuff.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30995 on: August 20, 2018, 07:23:48 PM »
Yes everythings now going Dandy, with Modern slavery, racism etc, in the ascendency
In the ascendancy? Where's this, then?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30996 on: August 20, 2018, 07:25:59 PM »
In the ascendancy? Where's this, then?
Minorities were merely weaponised by the overtly non religious, Shaker...merely to ''stick one on religion'' Non religion generates it's own others.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30997 on: August 20, 2018, 07:29:36 PM »
Minorities were merely weaponised by the overtly non religious, Shaker...merely to ''stick one on religion''
Works for me.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30998 on: August 21, 2018, 12:22:05 PM »
You see this post hoc rationalisation as good?

Really?

You are now talking about slavery and rape and you seem not appalled by it, because you have to conclude it was a good thing, as your god was behind it.

Does this not give you cause to question the motives of a god like this if it existed.

I am more moral than your god (so are you too I suspect)

Well fancy that. Another convert to absolute morality....some one who is more moral than....eh?

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #30999 on: August 21, 2018, 01:36:38 PM »
As our increasingly non-religious society (secular means something else) moves away from God we seem to be fine-tuning our moral judgements on the whole for the betterment of all.
You mean like this?

Transgender prisoner who was put in a female jail despite not having sex-change surgery ‘sexually assaulted four women inmates before being moved to a male prison’

What it is leading to is the death of common sense, where things that are obvious and should be inherently so are no longer the case!

I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.